Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told

There is zero chance we're going back to "transsexual" as a label or definition. This makes it too easy to seperate children and adults.

The whole idea is for maximum vagueness on boundaries, maximum flexibility of definitions, maximum ambiguity on children/adults.

The mindfuck is not that ultra misogynists, bad actors, lobbyists and activist allies etc, pushed this far.

It's that the adults in the room, the policy makers, the politicians, the elites, allowed this to go as far as it did, happy to, or at least complicit with the movements policy push.

And now we have the ignominy of a CONSERVEative govt after 13 years of inertia and lack of engagement, sitting on its collective thumbs as Stonewallification of British institutions happened on its watch, even when the hot potato of child safeguarding is fully visibly in danger, just cannot pull it's finger out to get an equitable result here.

The phenomena on the ground for girls and women is bad enough, but watching the institutional capture of our politics and public bodies is nearly as painful to experience.

We are truly ruled by the least impressive public servants ever.

I've wondered a bit about this, where people seem to put worries about discrimination above everything else, even when it makes no sense. This isn't the only issue where I've seen that happen.

I wonder if it isn't a sort of psychological reaction, rather than anything from a rational process. People have been so completely immersed in the belief that discrimination is the sin from which all others derive, and inclusion and diversity the epitome of right, that they actually have a visceral reaction to anything that seems to them to violate these principles. They can't even think through the problem because they recoil at the possibility that they are violating those principles in some way.

Which to me has to come from the way people have been taught to think about those things.

Language is important and we should be using the language which is in the legislation when talking about these issues.

(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—

(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;

(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons

The law is about transsexual people. Not 'trans', not 'transgender', but 'transsexual'. The effect of using the words 'trans' and 'transgender' and then declaring that children can be 'trans' has been (in the words of one TRA) to 'desexualise the trans experience'. Can we go back to using 'transsexual', and then challenge those in favour of applying the term of 'trans' to children to explain exactly what makes a child 'transsexual'.

Excellent points OldCrone

They are kids. Under 18

She is being ridiculous.

The supposed medical basis of the trans child is the real issue, and the idea that people have that transgenderism is some kind of medical phenomena people are born with like being diabetic.

This really should be the starting point when devising these guidelines for schools. We need some definitions. What, exactly, is a 'trans child'? What are the symptoms of transgenderism/transexualism in children? In the ICD 11, 'gender incongruence' is classified under 'sexual health'. How can health issues related to sexual activity relate to children?

You know what I find really sad and could do weepy emoticons about?

Vulnerable kids being sucked into an adult political/religious movement that will use them without care for what happens to them in the process. If they grow up to regret being infertile, ill, harmed, with a damaged body, that movement will have no compassion at all.

Just like it has no compassion for children's rights to not undress in front of the opposite sex, to have safe changing and toilets, to learn to cope with bodily changes like periods with privacy and dignity, and for female children not to be taught that male children's wants and feelings must always come before theirs. And the right for children not to be fundamentally confused by adult manipulation and agenda before they are old enough or wise enough to realise they've been played with because it enables the freedoms of middle aged men.

'Compassion'. Ffs this movement has none. None at all. No compassion, no empathy, no conscience. Endless bloody manipulation though.

I agree that would be positive...if this guidance ever sees the light of day.

But sensible drafting is doing no good to anyone stuck in someone's drawer waiting for someone to tackle the difficult bits. They really do need to issue this guidance piecemeal.

I suspect that dimorphism's right that the necessary pressure will have to come from parents of children who are being harmed or at risk of harm (who obviously have enough to deal with already) because until there's a sufficient sense of urgency involving real cases, everyone is just going to play chicken with this guidance and wait out the clock until the next election.

Oh I forgot. Scots can vote here, we just can't vote up there.

Not sure if Jo Cherry MSP counts, lol.

Joanna Cherry is an MP.

Sunny, you can count on fingers of one hand the number of Lab MPs who'd vote for the needed safeguarding changes. Even fewer LDs and zero Greens. Not sure if Jo Cherry MSP counts, lol.

I'm really unsure how many Tories would, beyond Badenoch, Cates. No way is May, Mordaunt etc going to pull this way.

Tories have pretty much lost their 80 seat majority from 2019, Parliament acts as a series of cliques. I could really see a massive schism on the Badenoch/Cates v May/Mordaunt wings. And I suspect the risk uber averse Sunak not wanting to go there.

I think we don't realise the breath of unanimity btwn Tory and Labour parties on social issues. Those proud enough to stand up on gender issues are few and far between.

That's promising. I don't believe that children can be transsexual. But if children are distressed by gender stereotypes, that is something that schools can work on.

Transsexual children? What about not confusing children with adult concepts?

The problem is that parents whose children have been harmed in school don't want to re-traumatise those children with a punishing prolonged legal case (look at the length of time Maya, Allison, Denise, Rachel's court cases took) which is why I hope some 'class action' type legal challenges can be made which will reduce the pressure on any one family.

Agree on this

The thing is that schools who are socially transitioning are breaking the law NOW. They're breaking the law on safeguarding and on the requirement for single sex toilets. It's interesting how they seem concerned about a discrimination lawsuit but not one based on safeguarding failures.

Obviously what we need are some successful lawsuits against schools who've socially transitioned against the parents knowledge / best interests of all the children.

Parents just need to organise and demand their children are safeguarded properly. I very much hope the parents of the girls assaulted in mixed sex toilets bring lawsuits, I'd donate.

But where are you seeing the numbers to say it won’t get through?

Also that seems a contradiction to what you’ve said next

Either he can get it through now or not. If not go for a mandate at GE.

The public will is either there or not

If MPs have it wrong and won’t pass on it, let the public do the job and put it in the manifesto

Sunny, this isn't good enough. If Sunak pitches this change, plus the EHRC advice, and even a refusal to enact trans conversion ban legislation, for the next govt if re-elected, I won't fall for the bait.

The Tories have had majorities in 2015, 2017 and especially 2019, to get business done, and they haven't managed it.

Johnson a massive disappointment especially just 3.5 short years ago.

The debate needs to be had for us to see the lay of the land.

But a bit like Brexit, I now see total gridlock in trying to change this.

Institutional capture pretty much complete.

At least the Times allows comments!

Where do you see the numbers on which way it would go?

There’s always a mandate after a GE should people vote for it

Most of us are parents; many of us do, or have, worked in various children's services or in teaching. That is what is motivating people. There is no such thing as a 'trans child'. It is a social construction that is being foisted on vulnerable young people who have emotional and mental health issues, plus the usual childhood issues around developing identity and sexuality.

There isbtotal empathy for those being misled, by responsible adults, into believeing they have been born in the wrong body - or that they can change their sex. This is not kind at at all. It is downright irresposnible and utterly delusional.

When children ask if breasts can grow back after mastectomy, or if a boy can grow up to have a baby it is a sure sign that children are confused.

Well, it no longer “never fails to amaze me” when a certain poster shows up and makes wholly false claims about discussions on this forum. Rather, it’s entirely predictable that a certain poster does that.

No one here “lacks empathy and compassion” for children who self describe as a member of the opposite sex or for children who self describe as being of neither sex.

On the contrary, preventing long term harm to those children resulting from blindly complying with the demands of vociferous campaign groups is what motivates parents on here, especially parents of children affected by the infiltration into schools of these pro-child sex change campaigners.

Change this law quickly?
Sunak doesn't really have a working majority, his party is split on this.
There's probably a majority across all parties not to change the law.
Up that particular creek with no paddle.

I think a couple of pp do this but I agree this is useful

No, the PM still needs to get technical advice where it's relevant. In this case, legal advice on how what they want to do will actually play out. Bad or illegal rules or legislation won't get a pass because he's PM, nor should they.

Tbh I think this is the kind of care that's been missing from a lot of policy work in recent years, and that's part of why we are where we are. It's all about performative policy, not crafting something effective.

The Tory party is incompetent.