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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told

536 replies

Igneococcus · 19/07/2023 06:02

Sorry can't do sharetoken on this device, I'll do one later if nobody else posts one.
Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told (thetimes.co.uk)

What an utter mess this all is.

"Prentis said that a blanket ban would be unlawful because the Equalities Act states that gender reassignment is a “protected characteristic”, regardless of age. She gave the same advice when ministers asked whether there could be a ban on social transitioning for primary school children."

Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told

Rishi Sunak is expected to delay issuing transgender guidance for schools after the attorney-general and government lawyers warned that plans to strengthen it w

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-gender-guidance-schools-uk-pupils-pronouns-transition-2023-3w6qdskpc

OP posts:
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13
ArabeIIaScott · 19/07/2023 21:33

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/07/2023 18:54

Good thread on twitter about this
https://twitter.com/michaelpforan/status/1681619724034080770?t=R1R4W8A1trJ03CcXLyt-Eg&s=19

First some background. The Equality Act covers a list of protected characteristics. Gender reassignment is one of them. It’s not tied to the Gender Recognition Act, you don’t need to be in the process of obtains a GRC to be protected and it almost certainly covers minors.

This means that children who are experiencing gender distress are likely protected from gender reassignment based discrimination. There is a lot of confusion and misinformation about what being protected under GR means and this is likely affecting how guidance is being drafted.

Some advocates argue it means you are entitled to be treated as if you were the sex you identify with unless the policy passes a proportionality test. That’s incorrect. If you’re protected under gender reassignment you’re entitled not to be discriminated against on that ground.

The test for determining discrimination is called a comparator test: whether you would be treated less favourably than another person who is identical in all relevant respects except the protected characteristic in question.

We know from Green v Secretary of State for Justice that if you don’t have a GRC (no children have GRCs) your sex is your biological sex. So a trans boy is female for the purposes of the Equality Act. The comparator then is a girl without gender reassignment.

This is very important. It means that you need to ask whether other females would be required to wear the girls uniform or be referred to by she/her pronouns. They would be, so it’s not direct discrimination. Where this gets complicated is indirect discrimination.

Indirect discrimination occurs where persons who share a protected characteristic are put at a particular disadvantage and where there is no legal justification for doing so. I’ll return to that later.

So, continuing the background. Being protected under gender reassignment doesn’t entitle you to be treated as the sex one identifies with. But some very prominent advocacy groups have argued that it does. This has led to a lot of confusion.

Added to that, some have argued that the structure of the Equality Act is the reverse of what it actually is. The default is equal treatment. There are then exceptions built in that reverse this presumption in order to allow for single sex services, associations and schools.

But there is an exception to the exception which says in very rare circumstances, it may be disproportionate to have a single sex service - for example a men’s only barbers that refuses to cut the hair of a short haired woman.

So here’s the structure:

  1. In general equal treatment
  2. Some areas where presumption is revered to (in general) unequal treatment to allow single sex services
  3. In very rare cases, an exception to the exception.

But some have argued very persistently the exact opposite.

Some have argued that Gender Reassignment means you’ve a right to be treated as if you had changed sex when you haven’t and they have argued that 3 (The exception to the exception) is actually the norm: that it’s the default when it isn’t. This has caused so much confusion.

So anyone drafting guidance for schools is going to be cognisant of the fact that if you say ‘X is the general rule but in very rare circumstances Y can be done’ there will likely be a concerted effort to make Y the general rule when it is suppose to be the exception.

I suspect the guidance has tried to avoid this because it wants to provide guidance and not add to more confusion. Add to this the fact the Cass report has indicated that social transition is a medical intervention that should be carefully considered before any action is taken.

Against that backdrop the guidance likely sought to provide clear rules with no exceptions. The problem is that rules without exceptions run into problems with proportionality and proportionality is triggered if a policy has a particular impact upon kids who share a PC.

So there’s an issue of indirect discrimination and a question of justification for blanket rules. It’s not impossible for them to be justified as proportionate, blanket rules have been proportionate.

But the fact a rule has no exception is very likely a black mark against it in proportionality analysis. And this is probably what the legal advice from the Attorney General concluded.

So there will either be new advice issued that tires to make it clear that the exceptional case really is the exceptional case and not the norm, or legislation will be introduced to make it clear that schools can have blanket rules here.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1681619724034080770.html

Thanks for sharing that, I'd not been able to read it due to Twitter's latest huff.

As so often, my over riding feeling is that legislation SO COMPLEX that even specialist legal experts can't agree on the fine points is absolutely worse than bloody useless to those who need to implement it (schools, employers, etc).

OldCrone · 19/07/2023 21:24

On Starmer a poster on another thread pointed out he claimed self ID didn’t go far enough

When did he say this? Do you have a link?

rogdmum · 19/07/2023 21:09

And they don't have to be proposing a physiological transition. It can just be a declaration that they want to live as the opposite sex (whatever that means), but make no changes to their body. Or do you have some other interpretation of what they mean by 'other attributes of sex' which are not physiological?

Exactly OldCrone - posters really need to read through the debates from the time. It is clear that gender reassignment was meant to cover as wide an umbrella (including the under 18s) as possible. Unfortunately, only a tiny number of MPs realised the potential impacts of such a broad umbrella and they were ignored/dismissed.

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 21:08

RealityFan · 19/07/2023 20:55

Just how do you think a call to reform/scrap the GRA would go down in the media?

Those proposing it would be scandalised as bigots, transphobes, homophobes.

There would be an onslaught of resistance from Stonewall, other charities, the legal profession, the Church, scientists and academics.

I suspect scrapping it wouldn't be compatible with the ECHR and the agreement we have with the EU that Johnson negotiated.

Hell, I can even imagine Uncle Joe having something to say.

And it looks like there's absolutely no appetite from the current Tory govt to go near it, and the opposition parties would only add to it.

Did I hear Starmer say one of his aims was to "modernise" the GRA?

Who knows. The alternative is worse though

Look at what men are doing to women who speak up. Sanctioned violence. Speaking out is not going away as much as some want it to.

On Starmer a poster on another thread pointed out he claimed self ID didn’t go far enough

RealityFan · 19/07/2023 20:55

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 20:29

It does seem the GRA unleashed all this

The big problem is it’s so hard to fix but dissent makes our society worse because it brings more clamping down

Other countries have just conceded haven’t they

Just how do you think a call to reform/scrap the GRA would go down in the media?

Those proposing it would be scandalised as bigots, transphobes, homophobes.

There would be an onslaught of resistance from Stonewall, other charities, the legal profession, the Church, scientists and academics.

I suspect scrapping it wouldn't be compatible with the ECHR and the agreement we have with the EU that Johnson negotiated.

Hell, I can even imagine Uncle Joe having something to say.

And it looks like there's absolutely no appetite from the current Tory govt to go near it, and the opposition parties would only add to it.

Did I hear Starmer say one of his aims was to "modernise" the GRA?

OldCrone · 19/07/2023 20:51

Just as it is possible to see how the deliberate attempt to try and make sex and gender mean the same thing, it is possible to see how the distortion of language seems to have made even posters on FWR accept that gender reassignment (the protect characteristic) is the same as socially transitioning.

Who do you think the pc of gender reassignment covers? It's quite clear from the wording that it covers anyone from the moment they declare an intention to 'transition'

1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

And they don't have to be proposing a physiological transition. It can just be a declaration that they want to live as the opposite sex (whatever that means), but make no changes to their body. Or do you have some other interpretation of what they mean by 'other attributes of sex' which are not physiological?

rogdmum · 19/07/2023 20:44

It is worth reading through Hansard to understand just how broad the PC of gender reassignment was intended to be.

Lots of examples out there, for example:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmpublic/equality/090611/pm/90611s04.htm

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 20:29

It does seem the GRA unleashed all this

The big problem is it’s so hard to fix but dissent makes our society worse because it brings more clamping down

Other countries have just conceded haven’t they

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/07/2023 20:28

ValancyRedfern · 19/07/2023 19:43

Thanks Arabella. I think this is what I was thinking of. It is not at all as simple as schools misinterpreting the EqA and the DfE guidance. The issues and ambiguities are in the EqA and were there from the start.

This guidance heavily promoted Stonewall & either GIRES or Gendered Intelligence to schools with direct links to them. Early versions also signposted the paedophile scandal hit Mermaids if I recall correctly. Signposts to other protected characteristics were all government websites, not profit making queer theory groups.

These organisations literally got free advertising courtesy of the DfE. Of course schools will uncritically abandon safeguarding children when the DfE tells them these groups are the experts (despite their complete lack of professional knowledge of child psychology, development, education & safeguarding).

RealityFan · 19/07/2023 20:25

OldCrone · 19/07/2023 20:15

Until Stonewall jumped on the bandwagon of "trans" as this ever expanding umbrella (mainly about people not conforming to social norms and nothing whatsoever to do gender reassignment ie surgery) no one would have thought anything in the EA or the GRA had anything to do with young people experimenting with how they want to present themselves.

Organisations like Press for Change and GIRES were working on expanding the trans umbrella well before the EA was passed, and even before the GRA (I think Press for Change were one of the groups that helped get the GRA through).

Have a look at this thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

I quoted from Press for Change earlier about the change to the language. They said they'd been working on this change of language since 1996. The bit I quoted earlier was from 2007, well before Stonewall got involved.

Fascinating thread. I'm a sucker for nostalgia, but little did I think there was so much pre-history in this movement.

It looks like the 2004 GRA is the Big Bang movement, and the silence around it betrays the "in space, noone can hear you scream" tagline.

I can honestly say I have no recollection. Tony Blair was obviously setting up his legacy socially, knowing he was soon to stand down after the 2005 GE the following year...and what a legacy to leave.

HipTightOnions · 19/07/2023 20:25

But for those doing the actual work of the language of the GRA and EA would not have been thinking as those pressure groups were.

What do you think the authors did mean by "other attributes"?

ArabeIIaScott · 19/07/2023 20:25

IwantToRetire · 19/07/2023 19:53

Which is to say, a feeling in one's head.

The EA specifically talks about working towards physical change.

What you are saying is what TRAs are saying. ie which is how social transitioning has been allowed to spread like wild fire. Identifying

If adults, whether in school or at home, had said quite clearly unless you are working towards physically changing, ie surgery, you aren't trans. You are someone who wants to break down the straight jacket of gender.

And if schools hadn't been so backward and allowed gender free uniforms it would have put a huge dent in this socially contagious misnomer.

Cant think why you would use the TRA sleight of hand arguement, when it isn't even valid.

Social transitioning, ie the fad or trend that children are captured by and being pandered to, have nothing whatsoever to do with gender reassignment as described in the EA.

And if there are those who are hoping for surgery that process doesn't start until you are 18.

Did you not read the 2014 Schools guidance? I linked to it upthread.

IwantToRetire · 19/07/2023 20:21

Yes, yes we all know about the GRA etc., being the Trojan Horse.

But for those doing the actual work of the language of the GRA and EA would not have been thinking as those pressure groups were.

But of course this also illustrates what the problem has become. Had the pressure groups been more overt than relishing in ambiguity sex in the EA would have been clearly defined.

So although a bit late clarifying sex in the EA remains a priority - all the better alternative is to repeal the GRA.

The there wouldn't be a problem.

LoobiJee · 19/07/2023 20:19

IwantToRetire · 19/07/2023 20:01

Again this saying the ambiguity in the EA.

Read the Act as in the era it was written.

Dont fall victim ot the weasel words of the TRAs.

Until Stonewall jumped on the bandwagon of "trans" as this ever expanding umbrella (mainly about people not conforming to social norms and nothing whatsoever to do gender reassignment ie surgery) no one would have thought anything in the EA or the GRA had anything to do with young people experimenting with how they want to present themselves.

I dont understand this passive acquiescence to the way TRAs have manipulated language to further their cause.

Just as it is possible to see how the deliberate attempt to try and make sex and gender mean the same thing, it is possible to see how the distortion of language seems to have made even posters on FWR accept that gender reassignment (the protect characteristic) is the same as socially transitioning.

What purpose does it service to adopt the language of TRAs who are out to undermine women's rights.

I think the point is that the “other attributes of sex” (other than physiological attributes) wording in the EA2010 definition of “a process of” gender reassignment could be argued to cover clothing, names, pronouns, stereotypical behaviours and stereotypical interests. Because if you exclude physiological attributes of sex and refer to “other attributes”, what else is there other than these stereotypes?

The EA2010 didn’t specify that “other attributes” meant clothing, name, behaviours etc, and didn’t invent the term “social transitioning” to describe them. However I can see how a legal challenge to the schools guidance, if it included a ban on social transitioning, could easily argue that “other attributes” does cover so-called social transitioning, despite not being specifically described in the using that particular terminology.

OldCrone · 19/07/2023 20:15

Until Stonewall jumped on the bandwagon of "trans" as this ever expanding umbrella (mainly about people not conforming to social norms and nothing whatsoever to do gender reassignment ie surgery) no one would have thought anything in the EA or the GRA had anything to do with young people experimenting with how they want to present themselves.

Organisations like Press for Change and GIRES were working on expanding the trans umbrella well before the EA was passed, and even before the GRA (I think Press for Change were one of the groups that helped get the GRA through).

Have a look at this thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

I quoted from Press for Change earlier about the change to the language. They said they'd been working on this change of language since 1996. The bit I quoted earlier was from 2007, well before Stonewall got involved.

Hepwo · 19/07/2023 20:10

IwantToRetire · 19/07/2023 20:01

Again this saying the ambiguity in the EA.

Read the Act as in the era it was written.

Dont fall victim ot the weasel words of the TRAs.

Until Stonewall jumped on the bandwagon of "trans" as this ever expanding umbrella (mainly about people not conforming to social norms and nothing whatsoever to do gender reassignment ie surgery) no one would have thought anything in the EA or the GRA had anything to do with young people experimenting with how they want to present themselves.

I dont understand this passive acquiescence to the way TRAs have manipulated language to further their cause.

Just as it is possible to see how the deliberate attempt to try and make sex and gender mean the same thing, it is possible to see how the distortion of language seems to have made even posters on FWR accept that gender reassignment (the protect characteristic) is the same as socially transitioning.

What purpose does it service to adopt the language of TRAs who are out to undermine women's rights.

Completely agree and I've only really heard the phrase socially transition as a differential to medical transition since it was highlighted in the Cass review as a thing to be avoided because it's damaging, so it's not a long standing part of the lexicon at all.

LoobiJee · 19/07/2023 20:05

@ScrollingLeaves

“that suggests that a section about gender reassignment for school children was added to the EA in 2014? Does anyone know where it specifically adds that in the EA?”

It’s been explained at various points in this thread, but if you read my post at 19.38, it sums it up.

It’s the result of the definition of gender reassignment in EA2010 which goes wider than being in possession of a GRC and applies to all ages.

IwantToRetire · 19/07/2023 20:01

Again this saying the ambiguity in the EA.

Read the Act as in the era it was written.

Dont fall victim ot the weasel words of the TRAs.

Until Stonewall jumped on the bandwagon of "trans" as this ever expanding umbrella (mainly about people not conforming to social norms and nothing whatsoever to do gender reassignment ie surgery) no one would have thought anything in the EA or the GRA had anything to do with young people experimenting with how they want to present themselves.

I dont understand this passive acquiescence to the way TRAs have manipulated language to further their cause.

Just as it is possible to see how the deliberate attempt to try and make sex and gender mean the same thing, it is possible to see how the distortion of language seems to have made even posters on FWR accept that gender reassignment (the protect characteristic) is the same as socially transitioning.

What purpose does it service to adopt the language of TRAs who are out to undermine women's rights.

LoobiJee · 19/07/2023 20:01

“It still needed a population unlikely to talk back, clever elites happy to stop questioning and eager to accept, the unique boiling pot that is social media, and the also unique suspension of people's normal tripwires and trigger points during Covid, to remove enough barriers to faster unravelling.”

Covid didn’t happen until 2020, RealityFan. This was all well embedded years before before then.

It was September 2017 when Maria MacLachlan was assaulted at Speakers Corner by a 26yo male activist who went by the name of Tara Wolf.

The petition to have the 6ft+ male sex worker Tara Hudson moved to a female prison after Hudson’s conviction for assault on a male bartender was five years before the pandemic, back in 2015.

Keira Bell was put on puberty blockers by the Tavistock in 2013 and had a double mastectomy in 2017.

Those campaigning behind the scenes for this to happen weren’t just campaigning in the legislature, they were campaigning across all possible fields of influence: health, education, the media, trade unions and the charity sector.

IwantToRetire · 19/07/2023 19:53

Which is to say, a feeling in one's head.

The EA specifically talks about working towards physical change.

What you are saying is what TRAs are saying. ie which is how social transitioning has been allowed to spread like wild fire. Identifying

If adults, whether in school or at home, had said quite clearly unless you are working towards physically changing, ie surgery, you aren't trans. You are someone who wants to break down the straight jacket of gender.

And if schools hadn't been so backward and allowed gender free uniforms it would have put a huge dent in this socially contagious misnomer.

Cant think why you would use the TRA sleight of hand arguement, when it isn't even valid.

Social transitioning, ie the fad or trend that children are captured by and being pandered to, have nothing whatsoever to do with gender reassignment as described in the EA.

And if there are those who are hoping for surgery that process doesn't start until you are 18.

ValancyRedfern · 19/07/2023 19:43

ArabeIIaScott · 19/07/2023 16:50

'Protection against discrimination is now extended to pupils who are pregnant or have recently given birth, or who are undergoing gender reassignment.'

Protected characteristics 1.9 It is unlawful for a school to discriminate against a pupil or prospective pupil by treating them less favourably because of their:  sex  race  disability  religion or belief  sexual orientation  gender reassignment  pregnancy or maternity

Gender reassignment

3.3 Protection from discrimination because of gender reassignment in schools is new for pupils in the Equality Act, although school staff are already protected. This means that for the first time it will be unlawful for schools to treat pupils less favourably because of their gender reassignment and that schools will have to factor in gender reassignment when considering their obligations under the Equality Duty.

3.4 Gender reassignment is defined in the Equality Act as applying to anyone who is undergoing, has undergone or is proposing to undergo a process (or part of a process) of reassigning their sex by changing physiological or other attributes. This definition means that in order to be protected under the Act, a pupil will not necessarily have to be undertaking a medical procedure to change their sex but must be taking steps to live in the opposite gender, or proposing to do so. A glossary of terminology related to the transgender field can be found on the Gender Identity Research and Education Society website.

3.5 The protection against discrimination because of gender reassignment now matches the protection because of sexual orientation in schools. That is protection from direct and indirect discrimination and victimisation, which includes discrimination based on perception (see 1.11) and on association (see 1.10). Schools need to make sure that all gender variant pupils, or the children of transgender parents, are not singled out for different and less favourable treatment from that given to other pupils. They should check that there are no practices which could result in unfair, less favourable treatment of such pupils. For example, it would be unlawful discrimination for a teacher to single out a 18 pupil undergoing gender reassignment and embarrass him in front of the class because of this characteristic.

3.6 It is relatively rare for pupils – particularly very young pupils – to want to undergo gender reassignment, but when a pupil does so a number of issues will arise which will need to be sensitively handled. There is evidence that the number of such cases is increasing and schools should aim to address any issues early on and in a proactive way. Further guidance is available from the GIRES website – see paragraph 2.19 for links to their bullying guidance. In addition, a partnership of bodies in Cornwall have produced a useful guidance document for schools and families'

All the above taken from 2014 DofE Guidance, I think that's the most up to date?

The Equality Act 2010 and schools Departmental advice for school leaders, school staff, governing bodies and local authorities

Thanks Arabella. I think this is what I was thinking of. It is not at all as simple as schools misinterpreting the EqA and the DfE guidance. The issues and ambiguities are in the EqA and were there from the start.

LoobiJee · 19/07/2023 19:38

ScrollingLeaves · 19/07/2023 16:23

Is it because under Section 212 of Tge Equality Act
A man is defined as a male of any age and a woman as a female of any age ?

So a newborn baby girl counts as a woman, and a newborn baby boy as a man?

Yes. But mainly because the EA 2010 protected characteristic of “gender reassignment” doesn’t only cover individuals who have obtained a Gender Recognition Certificate (who would have to be over 18) under the GRA 2004, it also covers individuals proposing to undergo “a process of” gender reassignment which can include changing the non-physiological “attributes of sex”.

ScrollingLeaves · 19/07/2023 19:35

ArabeIIaScott · Today 16:50
'Protection against discrimination is now extended to pupils who are pregnant or have recently given birth, or who are undergoing gender reassignment.'

Protected characteristics 1.9 It is unlawful for a school to discriminate against a pupil or prospective pupil by treating them less favourably because of their:  sex  race  disability  religion or belief  sexual orientation  gender reassignment  pregnancy or maternity

Gender reassignment

3.3 ^Protection from discrimination because of gender reassignment in schools is new for pupils in the Equality Act, although school staff are already protected. This means that for the first time it will be unlawful for schools to treat pupils less favourably because of their gender reassignment and that schools will have to factor in gender reassignment when considering their obligations under the Equality Duty*.

3.4 Gender reassignment is defined in the Equality Act as applying to anyone who is undergoing, has undergone or is proposing to undergo a process (or part of a process) of reassigning their sex by changing physiological or other attributes. This definition means that in order to be protected under the Act, a pupil will not necessarily have to be undertaking a medical procedure to change their sex but must be taking steps to live in the opposite gender, or proposing to do so. A glossary of terminology related to the transgender field can be found on the Gender Identity Research and Education Society website.

3.5 The protection against discrimination because of gender reassignment now matches the protection because of sexual orientation in schools. That is protection from direct and indirect discrimination and victimisation, which includes discrimination based on perception (see 1.11) and on association (see 1.10). Schools need to make sure that all gender variant pupils, or the children of transgender parents, are not singled out for different and less favourable treatment from that given to other pupils. They should check that there are no practices which could result in unfair, less favourable treatment of such pupils. For example, it would be unlawful discrimination for a teacher to single out a 18 pupil undergoing gender reassignment and embarrass him in front of the class because of this characteristic.

3.6 It is relatively rare for pupils – particularly very young pupils – to want to undergo gender reassignment, but when a pupil does so a number of issues will arise which will need to be sensitively handled. There is evidence that the number of such cases is increasing and schools should aim to address any issues early on and in a proactive way. Further guidance is available from the GIRES website – see paragraph 2.19 for links to their bullying guidance. In addition, a partnership of bodies in Cornwall have produced a useful guidance document for schools and families'

All the above taken from 2014 DofE Guidance, I think that's the most up to date?

The Equality Act 2010 and schools Departmental advice for school leaders, school staff, governing bodies and local authorities

Thank you for that. It explains a lot.
The current problems of schools socially transitioning children evidently isn’t all the schools’ fault in the way it seemed.

When it says “protection from discrimination because of gender reassignment is new for pupils in the Equality Act”,

that suggests that a section about gender reassignment for school children was added to the EA in 2014? Does anyone know where it specifically adds that in the EA?

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 19:30

Oh and society backed male violence dressed up as righteous anger

Yeh it’s great

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