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KJK and the neo-nazis video

533 replies

niandraladesand · 15/07/2023 11:15

Just wondering if anyone here has seen this yet and what you think of it

Kellie-Jay & the Neo-Nazis

Content warning: Transphobia, homophobia, racism, antisemitism, suicide, sexual abuse, child sexual abuse, violence, abortion Videos I mentioned:The Witch Tr...

https://youtu.be/JBy93QX7ysE

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DiabolicalFinial · 17/07/2023 07:15

Thank you, @Bosky.

Bosky · 17/07/2023 05:07

Mega copy'n'paste follows . . .

Gender-Critical Anarchists/Feminists Facebook Group
12 July 2023

https://www.facebook.com/groups/950271879639687/posts/955434889123386

We thank everybody in Gender-Critical Anarchists/Feminists for helpful comments and suggestions, which have assisted us as we have written up what we call “KJK 10-Point 411.”
--

“KJK 10-Point 411”

“Pettiness separates; breadth unites. Let us be broad and big. Let us not overlook vital things because of the bulk of trifles confronting us.”
-Emma Goldman, “The Tragedy of Woman’s Emancipation,” ‘Anarchism and Other Essays’

We among the Gender-Critical Anarchists/Feminists issue this statement in support of Kellie-Jay Keen. Keen’s detractors resemble those who once attacked Emma Goldman, known for her anarchism and influence on decades of women. They traffic in misrepresentation, if not fantasy, without full attention to the facts. In Goldman’s words, in 1908, press coverage for her went along these lines: “True, she does not eat little children, but she does many worse things.” So, too, has Keen been covered in the most exaggerated terms in our time. There is at least one difference from past to present: The liberal press cares less about eating little children—and may as well celebrate it by now. We need to act without pettiness and with breadth on the principles of civil disobedience, free speech, and women’s dignity, against the tyranny of the state and its religions.

The following are ten points discussing objections to Keen, with attention to a gender-critical anarchist feminist position.

1. She does not identify with feminism, which means her women’s rights activism cannot be seen as feminist.

“I’m not a feminist. I am grateful to feminists of the past for the many freedoms I enjoy. But feminism has been taken over by pimps, punters, pro-men pretending to be women, pro-womb rental, anti-child morons. Stop trying to tell me that I should be a feminist.”
-Kellie-Jay Keen (@ThePosieParker), Twitter, July 8, 2023 https://twitter.com/theposieparker/status/1677574265711869953

“Kellie-Jay Keen is fighting for the literal dictionary definition for all women. She is risking her life to give women a place to speak out. We have been pushed back to such a place that I’m not going to get in this woman’s way, and I’m not going to spend effort to worry about what she calls herself. She is a very smart and extremely brave woman, and she is fighting for all of us. That is really unique. Any chance I get, I’ll provide interference to those attempting to stop or deter her.”
-Nikki Craft, Facebook, July 8, 2023

“Many of the lies shared about me were started by women who call themselves feminists.”
-Kellie-Jay Keen (@StandingforXX), Twitter, May 14, 2021 https://twitter.com/standingforxx/status/1393340725014765574

In her statements, Keen has expressed that her work is “women’s rights activism,” not “feminism.” Many have taken her rejection of the label “feminist” to be “antifeminism,” which does not make sense. Whatever its form, women’s rights activism creates needed social change in favor of women and girls. Above, we see that Keen’s rationale for dissociating from feminism has to do with its co-optation post-Second Wave. She does not say that women should not have rights and, in fact, has been pro-choice—in line with her prior left-aligned politics.

Apart from women’s rights activism, Keen has utilized the term “femalism” to refer to activism by and for women. The distinction is that, to reference Goldman, this movement would foreground breadth rather than pettiness. Everyday women need to feel like they have an investment in their rights as women. Keen is right in her criticism that what has been called “feminism” has left behind working women, especially mothers. Her ambivalence toward feminism makes sense.

Other women now regarded as feminist in their work have felt ambivalent about the label of “feminist.” Though now called a feminist pioneer, Virginia Woolf had mixed feelings about identification with feminism in her time. Arguably, Woolf had far less of a good reason to oppose identifying with feminism than Keen. Her earliest suggested title for ‘Three Guineas’ was ‘Men Are Like That,’ but she discarded it as “too patently feminist,” unlikely to be taken seriously. For Woolf, it had to do with the perception of her as a writer, especially within male-dominated literacy circles. She was concerned with the repercussions of how she would look to others, who could simply dismiss her writing altogether. By contrast, Keen’s refusal has to do with the modern colonization of feminism by prostitution, surrogacy, and transgenderism. These circumstances were not so in Woolf’s time and remain distinct to late twentieth-century and early twenty-first century social movements. This colonization has been facilitated through the eclipse of sex by “gender identity,” the rise of pornography into a global empire, and the more totalizing commodification of the female body in an unprecedented fashion.

2. She has been dismissed as a rabid right-wing woman, à la Phyllis Schlafly and Anita Bryant.

“She was a die-hard leftie for Labour. She is as angry as U.S. lefties (real ones, traditionally for unions and a social safety net) are at the Democrats for abandoning women. She is politically homeless, as many of us are. She is not ‘radical right-wing.’ She cares - more than almost anyone I know - about women.”
-Marian Rutigliano, Facebook, July 7, 2023

“This lie [being funded by the Heritage Foundation], along with many others, was started by so-called ‘left-wing feminists.’ I’ve never had a penny from the Heritage Foundation or worked with them.”
-Kellie-Jay Keen (@StandingforXX), August 1, 2021
https://twitter.com/standingforxx/status/1421761570779115523

For years, Keen had been quite liberal, to the left, even being a model “trans ally” in critiquing radical feminists for excluding trans-identified men in the early 2010s. If she were cut from the same cloth as either Schlafly or Bryant, among devout right-wing women, then would she have ever been a “trans ally” of any sort? Many liberals, even many on the left, share a very similar experience of converting from “gender-affirming” to gender-critical and “TERF.” Keen is no exception to many with a similar trajectory from ally to critic—and even abolitionist. Various times, she has described herself as “politically homeless,” finding neither left-wing nor right-wing applicable.

To the claim that Keen has been “exclusionary” toward some women, particularly lesbians, we must consider that she has supported lesbian rights advocacy. Arguments presenting her as “classist,” “racist,” and “homophobic” have been more diversionary than factual. For Keen, women’s rights must be for all women regardless of their class, race, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, and politics. In this way, her understanding corresponds with that of Andrea Dworkin, as seen in ‘Right-wing Women,’ what Dworkin terms “sex-class consciousness.” Keen’s emphasis on women’s rights activism, the phrase she prefers over feminism, functions in the interests of women as a sex class. Keen has appeared on right-leaning platforms to express criticism of men violating women’s boundaries. Unfortunately, platforms and presses that lean to the right have been virtually the only ones reporting critically on transgenderism and allowing her a voice to the masses.

Standing for Women, Twitter, October 28, 2021, https://twitter.com/standingforxx/status/1453698632297897985.

Posie Parker, “Lesbians Are Under Attack from Predatory Men,” ‘The Spectator,’ October 29, 2021
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/lesbians-are-under-attack-from-predatory-men

Posie Parker, “Fear and Loathing in New Zealand,” ‘The Spectator,’ April 1, 2023
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/fear-and-loathing-in-new-zealand

3. I heard that she used to be a “trans ally.”

Many of those now critical of transgenderism, especially from the left, used to be what one may call a “trans ally.” It is not generally acknowledged, due to the suppression of reality, but it is true. Those in support of transgenderism would rather pretend those critical of them are uninformed bigots rather than former allies. Learning about the social and medical transitioning of children and young people creates the critics. Men’s colonization of women, especially lesbians, creates even more critics among women.

4. She takes right-wing money.

There is much talk about Keen receiving vast amounts of right-wing money, allegedly making tons of money from activism—without evidence to substantiate the claims made. A plane ticket being paid for and having hotel accommodations provided for is not making a living on right-wing money. By contrast, as explored by Jennifer Bilek, politically liberal entities have bankrolled transgenderism with millions and billions of dollars. If capitalist enterprise is a problem for the critic, then Keen is not the Moloch here. A Marxist would look toward the industries, namely the profitable apparatus behind “gender-affirming care,” not a couple of expenses covered for an individual woman. Talk about “right-wing money,” even alleged profiteering on activism, easily drifts into the realm of conspiracy theory. Critics on the left refuse to apply even remotely equivalent scrutiny to the enormous capital being generated in the alienation of synthetic sex identities and the commodified body.

Jennifer Bilek, “The Billionaire Family Pushing Synthetic Sex Identities (SSI),” ‘Tablet,’ June 14, 2022, https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/billionaire-family-pushing-synthetic-sex-identities-ssi-pritzkers

5. She allows herself to be interviewed on right-wing media.

A common objection has been Keen’s willing appearance in right-wing media. Seldom does this point of view acknowledge that, if she did not appear there, then she would appear nowhere. Left-wing media platforms have not given space to critics of transgenderism.

6. She is hierarchical, profiteering, and exploitative.

Women who become leaders usually experience more criticism than men for exhibiting the basic qualities of leadership. Keen’s events platform other women than herself. She makes space for women and girls to speak and expresses gratitude for those who share. The idea that activism should never raise funds to support activists is what kills activism. Believing that activism should be the work of the impoverished and have no funding behind it has no basis in reality. Not even Marx operated without funding and support, but leftist male activists like him have not been called exploitative on this basis. The vow of poverty typically expected of modern activists destroys activism and makes social change impossible.

7. She is white, middle-class, straight, married, and has children.

“There is no real feminism that does not have at its heart the tempering discipline of sex- class consciousness: knowing that women share a common condition as a class, like it or not.”
-Andrea Dworkin, ‘Right-wing Women’

Emmeline Pankhurst was white, middle-class, straight, married, and had children, and her women’s rights activism - and that of her daughters - changed the world for women. Keen’s work may be compared to that of Pankhurst in consciousness-raising for women. Why are we pretending that a woman cannot work for women if she is white, middle- class, straight, married, and has children? Various women have expressed that mothers can feel left behind in the modern feminist movement, and it does not seem hard to see why. Keen’s activism connects to the woman with children, “the great unpaid laborer of the world,” who has felt alienated from modern feminist activism. Mothers have an evident investment in the improvement of society not only for themselves but also for their children. Simultaneously, we have much of what labels itself “feminism” devoutly believing that heterosexual males can be lesbian feminists.

In the history of the women’s movement, mothers from the middle class have been involved. Apart from Pankhurst, one may think of Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Neither was working-class, but each contributed to women’s rights in essential ways. Both women understood that women share a common condition as a sex class. Of course, in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, society did not pretend that men could be women and negate women’s rights on that basis. Men possessed women in marriage, as property, not by identity, which now also makes womankind into men’s property. The battlefield is similar but stupider.

8. She is only supported by a “personality cult.”

Support for Keen has been dismissed as being entirely a “personality cult,” which can be applied to most support for any figure or ideology. Marx is an example of one whose support can be characterized as such. In a letter to W. Blos, dated November 10, 1877, Marx himself spoke against the formation of a “personality cult” around him and Engels. It did not matter that he and Engels did not care “a straw for popularity,” showing “aversion to any personality cult.” Dismissal of Keen on this basis neglects the content of her women’s rights activism and, ironically, emphasizes popularity over political substance.

Likeability being seen as negative, by default, simply does not make sense. To a great extent, the activist who seeks to make social change must appeal to people and be real, which means human, to the masses. Not being likable certainly has its limits, even in the absence of a “personality cult.” Must activists be entirely unrelatable, with no connection to the masses? The idea that activists cannot be likable is as impractical as the vow of poverty expected of them.

Why must likability itself be a liability? As one woman asked, “How can you not love her? She’s fabulous and hilarious.” “Personality cult” aside, it really can be hard to resist a “mouthy Gemini,” as another woman most fittingly put it.

9. She does not have a penis.

After all, Keen is an adult human female, penis not included.

10. She is generally awful in other respects, unlikeable, apart from not having a penis.

Women do have a hard time being likable in defending women’s dignity. Women’s rights need an unsentimental defense. Of course, if Keen is generally awful, so very unlikeable, then so much for a “personality cult.”

Signed,

Donovan Cleckley, Nikki Craft, and the Gender-Critical Anarchists/Feminists
--

Relevant to the discussion of Keen’s activism, we include below the text of another piece that we did at the end of March. It covers similar ground to the points made above. We had used Keen’s nom de guerre Posie Parker.

--

“On the Vilification Strategies Against Posie Parker”

Nikki Craft, with Donovan Cleckley
March 26, 2023

Regarding the claims about Posie Parker being supported by the right wing, it matters to clarify that I have always distanced myself from the right. It has been so since the 1970s- 1980s, dating back to the earliest times in my activist work. For instance, I founded Citizens for Media Responsibility Without Law (CMRL), distinguished from the Moral Majority’s pro-censorship Citizens for Decency Through Law (CDL). I take issue with the broader guilt-by-association approach generally utilized against Parker and other women. Now, as to her comments that have been regarded as racist and Islamophobic, these can be disagreed with. Male violence cuts across race and class, an essential point in the radical feminist analysis. However, I do not think guilt by association and disagreement with her past comments mean needing to cast this woman to the side. It seems perfectly reasonable to support a woman for the way she calls other women to courage. While the critiques matter, I am not interested in debating my personal support for Parker—not on my page, or anywhere else for that matter, at this time.

I do not support her due to any popularity contest or “personality cult”; quite the contrary, I’m not like that. I support her from seeing how she has shown incredible courage against this new terrorism. Politically, the guilt-by-association approach has been detrimental to women, as seen in the astonishing lack of left-wing and liberal support for the Anti- Pornography Ordinance during the 1980s. In that case, political divisions clearly served to divide women against their own interests to the service of an industry that feeds on their bodies.

“I don’t ask women to pass a political litmus test to talk to me,” Dworkin says, interviewed in 1985. She understood these issues require attempts at deeper understanding—even, not surprisingly, cross-partisan coalitions. To those alleging her involvement with the right, Dworkin has replied:

“I think it’s been terrifically distorted. There hasn’t been any institutional support from the right wing, no money, no political support, and no intervention in litigation. On the other hand, when Jerry Falwell starts saying there’s real harm in pornography, then that is valuable to me. When the so-called liberals who claim to care about torture in prison in right-wing countries bring themselves to understand that a woman being tortured for entertainment is also a violation of women’s rights, I’ll be very grateful.”

Based on the above comment, Dworkin has been interpreted to support Falwell’s politics - extending, of course, to the Moral Majority. However, she simply commented that he, though contrasting radical feminists, at least recognized a harm the vast majority of left-wing people, including self-described “feminist” women, outright refused to see. For years, feminists critical of prostitution, pornography, surrogacy, and transgenderism have been accused of receiving a payout in right-wing money (largely without evidence - or even quantifying these allegedly huge amounts of money).

Meanwhile, liberals and the broader left have not been held accountable for bankrolling entire movements distinctively antagonistic to women’s rights. The push to commodify women in these various industries has obviously not been a grassroots effort. Yet individual women objecting to such industries have become subject to a criticism, to the point of distortion, that simply does not exist toward these industries.

Again, it seems worth considering how many of the claims against Parker have been “terrifically distorted,” as they were toward Dworkin in her life - and even in her death. This comparison is the main reason I have even brought up Andrea to make clear I already know very well about the bullying (including trashing from other women), the lies, and the purity tests used against women. These vilification strategies have been aimed at suppressing women’s speech. Parker has exposed the censorship in the media, especially now in Australia, against the radical woman hating coming from the left and liberals, which is commendable work for any woman. Indeed, speech over censorship used to be a priority on the left as well, in principle - until it got into bed with the pharmaceutical industry and its cult.

Transgenderism’s money has facilitated the capture of many groups, including former women’s rights and gay rights organizations now acting in opposition to their principles. If there is a desire for no woman to align with the right, then what are the critics doing to hold the left responsible for the widespread violation of women’s rights, the rampant child abuse becoming institutionalized, and the outrageous grooming happening in plain sight? Groups like the Actual Gender-Critical Left police women’s language, namely framing any even remotely critical discussion of grooming as “homophobic.” So-called “actual leftists” make apologies for pedophiles. They prefer attacking women for seeming “right-wing,” as opposed to confronting male violence and child sexual abuse. They have been far more focused on and effective in trashing Parker and other women than even tackling the industry. It matters to ask why. If they - and, yes, you - align with the left, then they - and, yes, you - become accountable by your own thinking and politics.

Women and men can express ideas in opposition on my personal page, but I would prefer it be limited. I cannot see it as useful to go into long arguments, usually being unproductive, that create no resolution and drive more divisions among women. At any point, if you do not feel you are an ally to me, or that you can no longer support my work or political positions, then it is very evident that you will need to leave my page.

My Facebook page should be a place where I do not have to deal with constant disputes that exhaust too much of my time and energy. It should be a place where I can exist and share my ideas without having my feminist credentials and thoughts constantly surveilled and policed. Additional distractions are especially unhelpful, especially now as I am working on two archival projects with my friend Donovan: the first being on Andrea Dworkin, the second being my own.

Please feel free to share these thoughts in appropriate places where these discussions on Parker are taking place. Women and men alike can benefit from thinking critically about women’s speech and its suppression. It matters to consider how liberals and, unfortunately, the left have most radically betrayed women.

And object to vilification strategies.

Nikki Craft
http://www.nostatusquo.com/

Director of Women Who Are Women WWAW
https://www.womenwhoarewomen.com/

The Andrea Dworkin Archival Project ADAP
https://www.facebook.com/AndreaDworkinArchivalProject/

The Turf War Zone
https://www.theturfwarzone.com/

KJK and the neo-nazis video
PorcelinaV · 17/07/2023 01:12

Helleofabore · 16/07/2023 21:10

Oh... of course. Here is the 'carrying guns' thing.

"Anyway the next problem I have with Keane's stated motivations for her activism is her claim to be protecting women's spaces. Keane says she's motivated to stop people she calls men from going into women's spaces like toilets and locker rooms and she also claims to be concerned about women's shortlists for rewards women's sports grants for women and things like that.
The first issue I have with this position is that Keane has repeatedly advocated for men to go into women's spaces. Most notably here she's argued armed men who agree with her to go into women's toilets including trying to enter School toilets."

Well, here is the transcript for that video:

"...and men? for once, I'm talking to you. I'm talking about you Dads who maybe 'carry' I think that's something that you say? I'm so down with the American lingo! Maybe you carry, maybe you don't. Maybe you consider yourself a protector of women. Maybe you're that sort of man. Maybe you have a daughter, or a Mother, or a wife. Maybe you have a sister. Maybe you just have some friends. Maybe you just think that women are human and you don't need any absolute connection with them to feel compelled to protect us."

"I think you should start using Women's toilets, men. Because you have every right to self identify. Clearly; don't do it and upset women and girls that are already in there, but just make a point of doing it. And maybe make the women feel ok about you doing it. If, you know, if you come out and you frighten someone. But it's about time you started using Women's toilets and saying that you identify as a woman, if stopped. And I think that's how you're gonna have to... that's one of the many ways that you are going to have to combat the insanity of self-ID Even if it's not called self-ID, that's pretty much what you have, now, in the United States. And that's how you men are gonna help."

It is yet another extreme bad faith interpretation that was actually started by the extreme trans activists, let's remember that.

Now, do I agree with her calling for men to use the women's toilets. No. But I can see what she is trying to achieve here.

And it is NOT for man with guns to specifically enter women's toilets.... with their guns!

It is making the point about those men who seek to protect their family members by carrying guns as one way they do that, can choose to simply use the same tactic of ‘self-ID’ to enter the female toilets and not only show society how ridiculous self-ID is, but to go in with their families because now no male can be kept out.

Do I agree that any male over 8 enters a female toilet? No. And her call to action that males do this was not appropriate. But it is important to be honest about what was said in context.

"Maybe you carry, maybe you don't."

Or can people not read the 'maybe you don't'.

But, hey. Don't let the context get in the way of a misrepresentation to vilify someone.

The video argument is that KJK is obviously a hypocrite and doesn't really care about the issue of single sex spaces.

I would say that is an obvious logical blunder by "Shaun", and it's simply not a real case of hypocrisy.

It's kind of like saying, "you don't really care about kidnapping because you believe in locking up kidnappers". It's a special case to try to fight it. You can't use that as evidence that someone doesn't care about the issue.

I would also mention, that I don't think that if you can find some degree of personal hypocrisy that this automatically means that someone isn't sincere. Sometimes they may not be sincere. Sometimes people are just complex and they can be a little hypocritical.

Also it's fairly trivial whether KJK is sincere on the issue, compared to the more important question of whether it's "correct" to want to protect single sex spaces.

BlessedKali · 16/07/2023 22:55

whenever i read threads like this I cant help but imagine that its written by either Jane C Jones or Jeni Harvey frothing at the lips desperately trying to convince somebody, ANYBODY that KJK is a nazi.

i might be wrong, and it might not be them..

MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/07/2023 22:55

ThisTimeIts · 16/07/2023 22:08

He was talking about aborting paedophiles pregnancies, the abortion removes the evidence.

Do you mean he's in support of keeping parents away from their daughter's medical issues / abortions so that paedophiles can get girls pregnant without their parents knowing? As that's quite a common technique with child abusers - taking girls they're abusing to health clinics for contraception / abortion without parental consent.

ThisTimeIts · 16/07/2023 22:08

AlisonDonut · 16/07/2023 22:07

Personally I consider men who want girls to be given access to abortions on tap to be what we used to call an unreliable narrator.

Who benefits from girls having abortions on tap exactly? And from girls being able to be free from parental influence?

He was talking about aborting paedophiles pregnancies, the abortion removes the evidence.

AlisonDonut · 16/07/2023 22:07

Personally I consider men who want girls to be given access to abortions on tap to be what we used to call an unreliable narrator.

Who benefits from girls having abortions on tap exactly? And from girls being able to be free from parental influence?

ThisTimeIts · 16/07/2023 22:05

He goes after JB, KJK, JKR, Helen Joyce and the Baroness, I guess that means they scare him the most and we should support them more.

spiderplantparty · 16/07/2023 22:03

I've listened to another chunk of it. I am curious as to why the presenter thinks that his documentary is compelling evidence. To him, it seems that appearances are of great importance. As another poster has mentioned, he talks about optics a lot. He doesn't appear to understand that you can be friends or work with someone without sharing all of their values.

Justnot · 16/07/2023 21:40

slight aside - Parents are mostly the best advocates for their children - I had to pull up the sexual health clinic for letting my daughter leave with the pill but no condoms! When challenged they said she didn’t ask. So it’s her first ever appt, she is looking to the expert in the room to advise her on best practice and they don’t even mentions condoms! The std rates for teens and young adults are horrendous. So having parents their to question and protect their kids interests is ideal.

Helleofabore · 16/07/2023 21:19

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 16/07/2023 21:11

hang on (leaving the comedy spelling error aside). Is chappie saying I shouldn't have any input into the medical treatment of my children 'cos abortions?

doesn't seem right does it?

That is how I read it.

Helleofabore · 16/07/2023 21:18

clothesintervention · 16/07/2023 09:37

I totally agree.

I was a FWR regular, used to post here all the time.

Can't be arsed now as any spirit of intelligent, thoughtful debate is gone.

All these posters, effectively putting their fingers in their ears and going la-la-la as they have swallowed KJK's narc bullshit.

That they won't even watch the video before commenting speaks volumes.

It's a waste of time, they're not engaging their brains, they're just repeating what they know they're meant to say.

It's very, very similar to arguing with TRAs.

As many of us pointed out, there is nothing new in this video that I could see. Not one of the supportive posters posted anything they thought was 'great'.

And so far, most of the tired old points have already been addressed in many threads already. Maybe you missed some of them.

But either way, your 'they're not engaging their brains' is a fucking ridiculous hyperbole.

We have transcripted videos, we have pointed out false misrepresentations in thread after thread after thread already. Your post simply seems like just another one to shame women who disagree with you.

Helleofabore · 16/07/2023 21:13

niandraladesand · 15/07/2023 19:39

The receipts are in the video🙂

If you call those points 'receipts', you have a very low bar for investigative standards.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 16/07/2023 21:11

NecessaryScene · 16/07/2023 21:07

"But Kelly J Keen says 'no! parents need to take back control of their children". This ends up being a restriction on particular abortions because miners wouldn't be able to get abortions without parental consent or permission.

I'm not a fan of this Shaun chap's views on child labour practices.

hang on (leaving the comedy spelling error aside). Is chappie saying I shouldn't have any input into the medical treatment of my children 'cos abortions?

doesn't seem right does it?

Helleofabore · 16/07/2023 21:10

Oh... of course. Here is the 'carrying guns' thing.

"Anyway the next problem I have with Keane's stated motivations for her activism is her claim to be protecting women's spaces. Keane says she's motivated to stop people she calls men from going into women's spaces like toilets and locker rooms and she also claims to be concerned about women's shortlists for rewards women's sports grants for women and things like that.
The first issue I have with this position is that Keane has repeatedly advocated for men to go into women's spaces. Most notably here she's argued armed men who agree with her to go into women's toilets including trying to enter School toilets."

Well, here is the transcript for that video:

"...and men? for once, I'm talking to you. I'm talking about you Dads who maybe 'carry' I think that's something that you say? I'm so down with the American lingo! Maybe you carry, maybe you don't. Maybe you consider yourself a protector of women. Maybe you're that sort of man. Maybe you have a daughter, or a Mother, or a wife. Maybe you have a sister. Maybe you just have some friends. Maybe you just think that women are human and you don't need any absolute connection with them to feel compelled to protect us."

"I think you should start using Women's toilets, men. Because you have every right to self identify. Clearly; don't do it and upset women and girls that are already in there, but just make a point of doing it. And maybe make the women feel ok about you doing it. If, you know, if you come out and you frighten someone. But it's about time you started using Women's toilets and saying that you identify as a woman, if stopped. And I think that's how you're gonna have to... that's one of the many ways that you are going to have to combat the insanity of self-ID Even if it's not called self-ID, that's pretty much what you have, now, in the United States. And that's how you men are gonna help."

It is yet another extreme bad faith interpretation that was actually started by the extreme trans activists, let's remember that.

Now, do I agree with her calling for men to use the women's toilets. No. But I can see what she is trying to achieve here.

And it is NOT for man with guns to specifically enter women's toilets.... with their guns!

It is making the point about those men who seek to protect their family members by carrying guns as one way they do that, can choose to simply use the same tactic of ‘self-ID’ to enter the female toilets and not only show society how ridiculous self-ID is, but to go in with their families because now no male can be kept out.

Do I agree that any male over 8 enters a female toilet? No. And her call to action that males do this was not appropriate. But it is important to be honest about what was said in context.

"Maybe you carry, maybe you don't."

Or can people not read the 'maybe you don't'.

But, hey. Don't let the context get in the way of a misrepresentation to vilify someone.

NecessaryScene · 16/07/2023 21:07

"But Kelly J Keen says 'no! parents need to take back control of their children". This ends up being a restriction on particular abortions because miners wouldn't be able to get abortions without parental consent or permission.

I'm not a fan of this Shaun chap's views on child labour practices.

Helleofabore · 16/07/2023 21:01

"Of course outside of her own head she is a single issue campaigner so what she personally thinks of abortion doesn't really matter. She's more than willing to sacrifice that right at the altar of her anti-trans campaign.

Again, this is a direct misrepresentation of what she did say. I suspect one of us has transcript that video if I remember but I cannot spare the time to go find it.

She talked about 'prioritising' defining female people in law FIRST!

This is all so dishonest.

"so there's a few things to say about this the first is that the claim that Keen is a women's rights campaigner is not true she is willing to trade away women's rights that they already have and a lot of hey has been made about the fact that Keane claims to be fighting for women's rights but is also willing to give up women's rights because that's an obvious hypocrisy right worth noting here though"

The hypocrisy is this YouTuber's.

This YouTube has not presented what she has said, but just repeated misrepresentations.

Helleofabore · 16/07/2023 20:57

"But Kelly J Keen says 'no! parents need to take back control of their children". This ends up being a restriction on particular abortions because miners wouldn't be able to get abortions without parental consent or permission. This would in cases where anti-abortion parents refuse to give consent either Force miners to carry pregnancies to term or cause them to seek out unsafe abortions. Keane often states that she is pro-choice and I think she probably legitimately believes that she is but that's just inside her own head."

So, this person admits that KJK says she is pro-choice, but this person doesn't believe her. Because she said that parents should be involved with their children's medical decisions and support their children. I think I remember the video she explains this. She is saying that children should have their parents support in these decisions so they can make a decision that is right for their health. I don't believe that she was declaring that no child should get an abortion or contraception.

I believe she was saying parents should be involved and making sure the child makes an informed decision. Please people who are saying this video is great, please post the transcript of the video with the wider context on what she said. This dishonest snipping is just that. Dishonest.

Helleofabore · 16/07/2023 20:51

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Ok. YAY! This person got one thing right !!! YIPPEE!!! I was wrong. YAY! Thanks so much Lettuces!

And YOUR contribution Lettuces? Did you contribute anything meaningful to this thread?

Froodwithatowel · 16/07/2023 20:50

Helleofabore · 16/07/2023 20:48

Just more and more twisting of the actions and words of a defiant woman for the next lot of guff. And it is guff. We have seen all of this before.

The reality is, KJK is human. She really does pushback on being censored and censured. Do I agree with everything she say? No. I also don't agree with what prominent feminists say 100% either. Does she deliver her message bluntly? Absolutely she does. She states her boundaries very clearly and some people disagree with her boundaries. That is fine. Disagree. But this is just so much waffle and 'guilt by association' and 'look at her, she says she is ok with being called transphobic'. I am nearly half way through and there is absolutely fuck all that is accurate or supported by anything other than misrepresentation.

"If you've watched my previous videos you'll know that she invited the anti-abortion politician baroness Emma Nicholson to speak at one of her events."

The Baroness has been misrepresented here. She is not 'anti-abortion'. She has issues with late term abortion but fully supports abortion in many instances. I cannot remember, but I think she has supported the current abortion laws.

So, again, more misrepresentation to try to bolster the argument.

KJK has stated very clearly her views on abortion and she is very pro-choice. This person has again misrepresented what she did say. Which was pointing out that without clarity on the word woman, that so many of the rights for women become meaningless. And that it is important to her to prioritise getting female defined in law first.

She set out her priorities. She did NOT say she was anti-abortion. For any of those posters who thought this was a great video, please post the transcript of where she talks about it. This person has clipped this from it:

"I think if it comes down to Reproductive Rights for women or the right to say who we are and what we are I mean the latter is far more important, I think you can win reproduction rights back I don't even know if there's a general appetite in America to take them away"

It was pre 'the Wade & Roe debacle' and this doesn't support what this person is misrepresenting them to support.

And the next bit where she discusses allowing children to take contraception that might be harmful to them without careful consideration of all the options is not controversial. But again, is misrepresented.

I am really just going to skim through the rest. This is not going anywhere that has not been discussed on so many threads on FWR. If I find anything new, I will post it.

Thank you for this summary.

It appears that, as usual, reading comprehension and semantic comprehension is the issue, rather than any real substance to the complaints.

IwantToRetire · 16/07/2023 20:49

On behalf of Lettuces who have done us no harm, as well as cheered up many a rabbit, I request that in future all references are in quotes ie "Lettuces" so that genuine, grassroots lettuces dont get a bad name.

Helleofabore · 16/07/2023 20:48

Just more and more twisting of the actions and words of a defiant woman for the next lot of guff. And it is guff. We have seen all of this before.

The reality is, KJK is human. She really does pushback on being censored and censured. Do I agree with everything she say? No. I also don't agree with what prominent feminists say 100% either. Does she deliver her message bluntly? Absolutely she does. She states her boundaries very clearly and some people disagree with her boundaries. That is fine. Disagree. But this is just so much waffle and 'guilt by association' and 'look at her, she says she is ok with being called transphobic'. I am nearly half way through and there is absolutely fuck all that is accurate or supported by anything other than misrepresentation.

"If you've watched my previous videos you'll know that she invited the anti-abortion politician baroness Emma Nicholson to speak at one of her events."

The Baroness has been misrepresented here. She is not 'anti-abortion'. She has issues with late term abortion but fully supports abortion in many instances. I cannot remember, but I think she has supported the current abortion laws.

So, again, more misrepresentation to try to bolster the argument.

KJK has stated very clearly her views on abortion and she is very pro-choice. This person has again misrepresented what she did say. Which was pointing out that without clarity on the word woman, that so many of the rights for women become meaningless. And that it is important to her to prioritise getting female defined in law first.

She set out her priorities. She did NOT say she was anti-abortion. For any of those posters who thought this was a great video, please post the transcript of where she talks about it. This person has clipped this from it:

"I think if it comes down to Reproductive Rights for women or the right to say who we are and what we are I mean the latter is far more important, I think you can win reproduction rights back I don't even know if there's a general appetite in America to take them away"

It was pre 'the Wade & Roe debacle' and this doesn't support what this person is misrepresenting them to support.

And the next bit where she discusses allowing children to take contraception that might be harmful to them without careful consideration of all the options is not controversial. But again, is misrepresented.

I am really just going to skim through the rest. This is not going anywhere that has not been discussed on so many threads on FWR. If I find anything new, I will post it.

ThisTimeIts · 16/07/2023 20:46

I am half way through. He doesn't like Julie, JKR or any of us supporting KJK.

The only not I would like more information on is the woman who got pregnant with a lad she was responsible for, what's the actual story as I don't trust Mr (pregnant people) Twist events, who thinks because JKR deleted a tweet two days later she should go back years to delete other tweets.

NecessaryScene · 16/07/2023 20:42

It's almost as if Lettuces has nothing to say themselves, and only wants to call out anyone who says anything.

The sum total of Lettuces' MN total contribution to MN so far:

I thought it was excellent, would be interested to read what people on this board who actually watched it think.

Have you watched it?

Wetransfer link for a transcript of the youtube auto-generated subtitles in .txt format

Are you actually watching the video?

What a way to live.

Can't wait for the fifth installment.

IwantToRetire · 16/07/2023 20:41

I wasn't going to bother much more with this as it seems to be a complete time waster but having now seen @Helleofabore sacrificial efforts on our behalf I went to the video web link.

And quite honestly my only response is why anyone, only 5 days ago, made a video that appears to be little different in content to things said a year, 2 years, 3 years ago. Not only make but assume others would want to bother with it.

Had this delusional male said something along the lines of I now have information that confirm suspicisions from 2023, 2022, 2021 etc., about KJK you would think well there is some point.

Seriously, whatever the issue, why would you make a video this week that has already been made so many times before/

Or is he some very special person that we should all stop and listen to?