KJK and the neo-nazis video

Ah yes, that age old ploy of being anti-abortion by being pro-choice. Very sneaky.
I suppose it makes sense if you believe that something can be its complete opposite, like men being women.

I've had this thought.

Next weekend is a LWS event in Portsmouth.

I suggest OP (and Shaun can be invited to) watches the live YouTube of the event and has the guts to comment on the youtube page all the wasy in which the event and KJK are promoting nazism.

Not on mumsnet because believe it or not, mumsnetters are a tiny fraction of followers and supporters of LWS.

But on the live feed for the event.

Surely it is not just those of use on FWR who need to be made aware of this charlatan, but the world.

Look forward to seeing how this would work out!

I need a lie down just reading it. Helleofabore must now need a week off.

In one way you shouldn't have had to do it, because so much of it has already been shown to be batshittery.

But we need to remember to bookmark this when this accusation comes up again.

Which it will.

So @niandraladesand .

Still too busy to comment on the thread you started? Want to address at least some of the fucked up dishonesty of this YouTuber? And how about those ‘receipts’ you assured us were there?

Anything ?

Or was this as we supposed and a bad faith thread to start with. That you posted as some kind of ‘gotcha’.

The other thing that I think makes KJK such a target is there is nothing of the angst about her.

She thrives on the battle.

It must be bloody annoying when someone is getting a kick out of your techniques.

"Keane often states that she is pro-choice and I think she probably legitimately believes that she is but that's just inside her own head."**

Lol, as opposed to who else's head!?

it's completely insane.

My hat too. All my hats. Stupendous analysis.

Can this YouTuber get anymore dishonest? Can this YouTuber even comprehend speeches properly? This speaker did NOT ‘cast herself as a Nazi’. This speaker was clearly discussing how propaganda works.

I think we know that if the concept were borrowed by someone that "Shaun" approves of, then suddenly he would understand, "they are just borrowing the concept, not endorsing Hitler's own use of it".

But he wants to play dumb when he can use that to attack an enemy.

Desperate mud slinging, by the sound of it.

Arabella, the fuckwittery is very high in that video. But this really was just one of the hypocritical narratives. It defies belief that any poster would not have picked this up..... I can really only assume that misogyny was at the heart of this hypocritical crap.

The hilarious thing was that regular posters to the board were being accused of 'not engaging their brains'. I laughed at that. Very loudly. Because as I said up thread, 'we' have the 'receipts'. We have the fucking transcripts for the things that these supposed intellectuals are using dishonestly.

I mean, I could have gone right back to the research I did when we had an activist who was determined to convince us that the wiki pedia page was all wonderfully investigated and confirmed true. That guy was even going to write to Steigen the supposed 'nazi' that KJK had a selfie taken with to get him to confirm that KJK was far right wing like him and that the random selfie meant something. While telling us that all the speakers at that Norwegian event were also 'far right' when they were pretty much all left wing.

I could also go back to all the accusations from those Actual Feminists and point out how their arguments completely lack symmetry and that what they are accusing her of, they should be also accusing other prominent feminists of but they don't because they approve of the other feminists communicating the same message.

The deceit just goes on and on.

If people want to criticise Kellie Jay Keen, go for it! Use relevant and truthful interpretations of what she says, stop twisting things to be absurd misrepresentations. And also, if you are going to criticise her, tell us what the fuck you are doing that is raising awareness around this issue and the indirect effects that your efforts are having.

👏👏

Helleofabore, this is for you.

"Keane often states that she is pro-choice and I think she probably legitimately believes that she is but that's just inside her own head."

That's actually almost beautiful in it's batshittery. So someone's belief is 'just inside their own head' and that makes it somehow not true? Amazing. Wait til I tell you what trans activists think about sex and gender.

And me - love watching them getting their arses handed to them

going forward we should just post a link to this thread and let it tumbleweed

Hats off from me too, @Helleofabore

I take my hat off to you @Helleofabore for getting so far. I abandoned it under 20 minutes in!

I see there was nothing new in what you watched just the same old recycled shit slinging. Same as it ever was.

I am not going to do any more.

This person has not introduced anything new, and I think that their dishonesty and their hypocrisy and their misogyny is very clear to see. If you are someone who has been convinced by this video, I think it says a great deal about you.

So the video drifted through to the 'Big Lie' next.

“That was a speaker at a let women speak event in Newcastle there quoting Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf. Now it should be noted here that when Hitler wrote about the concept of the big lie he didn't say, ’ we the Nazis are going to do the big lie to attack Jewish people.’ He claimed that Jewish people were telling a big lie in particular he was claiming that Jewish people were lying about the reasons that Germany lost the first world war. By citing Adolf Hitler's use of the big lie Theory, instead of say anyone else who isn't actually Adolf Hitler's use of the Big Life Theory, the speaker is therefore casting trans people as the Jewish people in her metaphor and her herself and her allies as the Nazis. Which well she said it, not me.”

Well, this is the speaker that this YouTuber is referring to.

Let Women Speak - Newcastle - Part 2 time 8.59

https://www.youtube.com/live/vgxjSGeCE4Q

And this is the transcript of her speech.

_

Now, I am going to talk to you about something I have not seen in the press. I am a hypnosis practitioner and have been doing hypnosis for 30 years and helping people to hypnotise others. And I know about language. I know that this is based on something we call the ‘big lie’.

Do you know the ‘big lie’?

The big lie was first described by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf. The big lie is such a big lie that ordinary people like us think, ‘Well, that can’t be a lie. Because I have never tell as big a lie as that.’ We only lie in small ways. The big lie… There is one big lie going on and it is being done by men, in the early part of the 20th century.

It began when they had an erotic fantasy. And they decided they were going to sell us the ‘big lie’. And what is the big lie? The big lie is that that ‘transwomen are women’.

But they are not, are they? They are men, and we know that.
So let me just spend a couple of minutes telling you a bit how this hypnosis works.

Repetition. Repetition is hypnotic. The more you repeat it, the more you believe it. The more you hear ‘transwomen are women’, the more a shadow of that big lie, lies in your head.

I am sure that I am not alone in that I am sat at home and thinking, maybe there is, you know, maybe they do have female thought patterns. No! The effing don’t! All the thought patterns I have, are my thought patterns and I have as much DNA that is female in my toenail that Izzard doesn’t have in any part of him.

So the thing is, you start to believe it. You start to believe it. And if you repeat an idea over and over again, and people start to believe it, and you want them to believe it, that is called affirmation. Affirmation is what hypnotists use to make you believe something. So, ‘be kind’ is an affirmation.

If you are sympathetic to this ideology, this ideology that I call the ‘trans phallus - ey’. If you are sympathetic, then you are affirming. Everytime you call a he who says he is a she, she, you are affirming.

Affirmation makes people believe things. If you repeat it and you repeat it. I hope that I am repeating this enough that you will be in no doubt, no doubt ever, that a man is a man and a woman is a woman.

So how to stop this, what is called ‘gaslighting’, what is called brain washing.
Manage your emotions. Don’t match them. Don’t get sympathetic. Don’t go ‘there there dear’.

Break the chant. Pour cold water over their lies. Do it realistically or do it with your words. Your honest words break people out of compliance. If you are honest, they cannot stay where they are, cos it is all about stake management. We have to manage our emotions.

Refuse to affirm.

And the best thing is laugh. I know that I am not laughing now, but I do laugh a lot.

And I want to just give you one last tip on hypnosis. Don’t ever say to someone, ‘transwomen are not women’. Because our unconscious mind does not think ‘not’. It only thinks it is transwomen, women, transwomen, women. Transwomen, well they are women, aren’t they? They are women! Emotions. Emotions are what caught them. They got caught, not by rational things, but they got caught by emotions. And how are we going to break this is by using emotions that shake them out. So, they can’t find that emotional sympathy ever again.

Thank you.

Discussing a concept such as how a lie that is so inconceivable that normal people cannot believe it is a lie is what she did. And she did it to highlight how society has been influenced to repeat a mantra that males can ever be considered 'women'.

Should this propaganda tool never be discussed because to do so 'invokes' Hitler some how? Will people stop discussing Foucault then? What about mentioning anything that John Money did or said?

I am all for people critiquing what Lisa Morgan said, but let's get to the facts.

Was she 'quoting' or was she pointing out the propaganda tool that she believes has been used? Shall we stop discussing all aspects of communism then as well? Can't discuss the manifesto?
“the speaker is therefore casting trans people as the Jewish people in her metaphor and her herself and her allies as the Nazis. Which well she said it, not me.”

Can this YouTuber get anymore dishonest? Can this YouTuber even comprehend speeches properly? This speaker did NOT ‘cast herself as a Nazi’. This speaker was clearly discussing how propaganda works.

But hey…. Apparently this YouTuber is excellent according to lettuces. The receipts are in the video says OP @niandraladesand.

Blimey, this video has been a load of crap tactics from start to finish.

Right, I am doing another stint.

”I want to make clear it's what I think Keen considers to be the nice way of erasing trans people. Which is her ultimate political goal. Keane wants all trans people either in the closet or in prison or de-transitioned or dead, but really just vanished from society at large being the main point. Keen is absolutely an eliminationist when it comes to trans people. Her Victory condition is no more trans people and I'd like to talk about a couple of effects this sort of obsessive hate can have."

"The first is how over time it comes to supersede all previously held beliefs and principles, for example on the issue of abortion Keen claims to be pro-choice and as I stated earlier, I think she genuinely believes that she is. And she probably doesn't like abortion being outlawed, she doesn't like abused mine as being forced to carry unsafe pregnancies, she doesn't like women dying needlessly on operating tables, she doesn't like it, but she doesn't hate it. She doesn't hate it like she hates Tran people. Her hatred is simply stronger, more animating of a force than all of her previously held principles. This is how someone who was once proudly pro-choice ends up allying with anti-abortion activists. How someone who was once eager to call out the church is covering up of child abuse scandals ends up allying with the religious right and so on. The moment they get in the way of the hate campaign all those previously held principles get thrown out the window”

So.... again ... this YouTuber is continuing with a previous assertion. Previously they have asserted: "Keane often states that she is pro-choice and I think she probably legitimately believes that she is but that's just inside her own head."

So.... let us look at this. This misogynst male is asserting that a woman who doesn't seem to follow what this YouTuber believes women SHOULD believe about women and their bodies, doesn't support what she says she supports. Because .... this YouTuber has drawn conclusions of 'guilt by association' and used polarised thinking that anyone who is not 'left wing' and believing what they, the YouTuber believes they should believe is automatically far right and anti-abortion.

While telling us that a group of people should be believed for what THEY say about themselves, yet this woman cannot possibly be believed because this YouTuber has declared her to be false. Even though this Youtuber admits clearly that KJK has indeed said that she is pro-choice.

Let that sink in for a bit. If you honestly believed that this video was excellent, this is what you are supporting. This kind of hypocrisy has been all the way through this video.

So, again. This YouTuber has declared that KJK 'hates' trans people. They have repeated this often. I don't believe that I have seen KJK state that. This is a conclusion drawn from a narrow and prejudiced perspective. And again, if you believe this, link us up to the evidence. Because this snipped evidence on this video is blatant in its misrepresentation.

For the above paragraphs to be true, you would have to be a person who believes that everyone that you interact with has to fit your political alignment. That political panels must ONLY contain people who agree on all political issues. That no one who has even a slightly different perspective to politics can be listened to at all or worked with. That everyone who disagrees with you, must hate a group in society that they don't believe should have access to another group's protections and rights.

And if you believe this, then I don't know how you think the world works on a day to day basis. Because that is tribalism, that is simply lacking in any critical thinking and it is completely unrealistic.

The hypocrisy and the dishonesty really is very blatant by now.

Bosky · Today 05:07
Mega copy'n'paste follows . . .

Thank you very much.

I am still going through this. I mean the hyperbole that this person indulges in is incredible.

”I want to make clear it's what I think Keen considers to be the nice way of erasing trans people which is her ultimate political goal. Keane wants all trans people either in the closet or in prison or de-transitioned or dead but really just vanished from society at large being the main point.”

So, not only do they use misrepresentations, which is dishonest. They use a great deal of hyperbole. However, they also use polarised thinking as per this quote above.

This is classic polarised and catastrophic cognitive dissonance. It is also absolutist.

I am sure that if you already had made up your mind about someone, you will be nodding along with this. But it is so much waffle and it never shows any balanced thinking.

I mean, this is a person that thinks that she is abhorrent for discriminating against trans people. The individual says "so Keane thinks discrimination against trans people is okay". After Kellie Jay discusses a male using the female changing room in Sheffield NHS in the tribunal case.

So tell us @niandraladesand @Lettuces, should male people use an open communal changing space where women are undressing? Yes or no?

Should women have their own sport's categories where no male's compete? Yes or no?

Because if you even have one doubt, this YouTube counts YOU as discriminating against trans people too. So, if we were to use this person's tactics, you are just as bad as Julie Bindel, Joanne Rowling and Kellie Jay Keen.

That is what this person has done the entire way through.

The video immediately goes into her saying that she doesn't think that a male who demands that they are accepted as a woman should not be in 'some situations'. It is right there in the transcript.

"'I'm happy to say that in some situations um being exclusive or discriminatory is absolutely um 100 fine by me'. So that's Keen saying trans people shouldn't be able to work in positions of authority there."

She says 'some' and this person takes the polarised and absolutist tactic of 'all'. Again. This is dishonest.

Here is another one straight after.

"Anyway next up I'd like to talk about Lucy Meadows who was a transgender teacher who died by suicide in 2013 after being subjected to a campaign of harassment by the UK press, here's Keen talking about that case. "Way back there was a teacher who pretended to be female and they were um outed in the Press. Pretty sure everyone who'd ever met them knew that they weren't a female um, and I think they took their own lives. I think people were really upset that a man pretended to be a woman and taught their primary school kids and I'm just gonna say quite right too""

It is incredibly dishonest to portray this clipping of the video to be showing KJK saying 'quite right too' as being for anything other than people being 'really upset that a man pretended to be a woman and taught their primary school kids'. Yet, this YouTuber has done just that. Twisted it to be her saying 'quite right too' about suicide.

They then go into how she has stated 'several times that she wants trans people to die'. Again that catastrophising by using misrepresentations.

Yes, be disappointed about her tweets about suicide in 2016 & 2017. They were callous. I think she has probably learned a lot in the meantime and wouldn't post those again. If she did, then I am also sure that many people would push back hard on that.

However, it is really important that people focus on the truth. And that clipped video was a dishonest tactic.

And yes, she discusses suicide rates as being misinformation. Because there is evidence that shows that it is misinformation that has been weaponised by groups for many reasons.

So, if you were really posting this here for 'discussion' @niandraladesand , how about you provide some of the evidence that this youtuber then presented to back up their assertions about suicide rates.

What is eye openingly hypocritical is that in one section this YouTuber accuses KJK of scrolling back on twitter profiles to find something to comment on with people she is in an argument with, while nearly all these tweets that they have resurfaced are from 2016 & 2017.

And yet, posters are here saying how great this video was. And yet, not one of those posters has made any comment on any section of the video..... just more hypocrisy.

I might come back to this some time. But it is so slow going because nearly every point that this person uses is twisted somehow, and usually a misrepresentation. If someone did a such a crap video as this on a trans person, I would be going to go and check what they were saying because it would be sounding loud alarm bells in my head that there so was much dishonesty being presented as truth.

I came for the Bible, stayed for the Dickens

Another commonality i have seen lately is the use of dehumanisation such as ‘you lot’.

“I know you lot just don't want to hear it” for example. I have noticed this recently in numerous posts about how FWR is no longer a place where feminists have intelligent discussions or about how horrific the board is with its constant transphobia.

It is a pattern that says ‘I don’t agree with you, so I am going to dehumanise you so I can vilify you’.

Yes Porcelina, the statement that she doesn’t really care about single sex spaces was so ridiculous that it defies intelligent thought. And all based in on a bad faith interpretation.

It is continuous. I was in yet another cyclical discussion about this very transcript only very recently.

In the end, one poster was down to ‘but why did she mention GUNS?’ and ‘particularly mentioning guns in a culture where mass shootings occur regularly’. One other poster did the whole ‘I am as GC as they come, but ….’ And then had said that KJK had literally said to shoot or kill trans people in that video (before I posted the transcript)
and they never once acknowledged that they lied about it.

Kellie Jay does her videos unscripted. I think it is a mistake sometimes as she sometimes doesn’t finish her thoughts off before moving on. She will also say stuff that can be misrepresented. On the other hand, some of her statements are very straight to the point with fine accuracy.

However, the main thing is that she is out there and she is doing something. What is also remarkable is that there are overwhelmingly many women finding their ability to articulate their own views because she does this. No one has to agree with 100% of what she says. That would certainly be a cult like following and not healthy for any movement.

This constant ‘KJK is running a grift, it's tragic to see so many of you fall for it’ is never followed up with anything but misrepresentations of what she has said or what she does. And often the poster making the accusations uses so much hyperbole themselves while accusing KJK falsely and generally tries to portray other women who defend KJK as being vulnerable to manipulation.

No, we are not in a cult, we don’t always agree with KJK, some people who rarely agree with her methods still can see the falsity of these accusations, but we are also not about to allow false accusations to continue.

Something that this YouTuber even picked up on, when Julie Bindel defended against the Nazi accusations.

It is called being a grown up and seeking the truth.