Labour canvasser today

Optimim isn't going to cut it, you need to ask and get an answer.

Broad church here means the church and the God damned car park outside.

I think it’s more likely to be true of Tory than lib dem or Labour candidates but I’d put it no higher than that.
mike Freer should fuck off to the Lib Dems and take that appalling nokes woman with him.

I know what my Tory MPs take on it is, fortunately I won’t be voting for him as he is standing down in the next election, I’m optimistic that his successor will be supportive of women’s rights and I will be voting for her/him

This is why it is so important to check the views of the individual candidates. "At least the Tories know what a woman is" has always been a lie, put out by Tory spin doctors and spread by handmaidens of the Tory party and believed by people who didn't check the facts.

Were the more "reed in the wind" candidates male or female, or a mix?

How did they react to you pushing your line? No debate, exasperation, indignation, felt you were a phobe and the "wrong sort"?

How did you feel about them? Why do you think they've ended up this way? The party machine, trans prevalence in their politics and social circle? Full on indoctrinated?

This is not 1997, when there was cash awash in the economy, and the best possible circumstances for Labour to transform public services, and Blair's iron grip on the Left (rolling over Clause Four totally castrated his internal critics).

Starmer certainly doesn't seem to have Blair's grip on the party.

But it's worth remembering, with regards to finances, that Blair really kicked the can down the corridor. They did not have the necessary money to pay for the NHS. It's being paid for by taxpayers today and is a significant burden on the health system. Anyone looking at what has happened in the last year with the struggle to make it viable should keep that well in mind.

Join the Labour Party to influence candidate choice but if a TWAW one gets in, you can always vote for another party

I'm a Labour member. My constituency is about to choose its candidate for the next election, and all the potential candidates have been phoning around. I've asked them all where they stand on women's rights. Some have gone straight onto how oppressed trans people are, not even mentioning women. That's a no. Some have talked about 'traditional' women's issues and when faced with a follow-up ("great, you want to address women's unequal pay, how will you define 'women' so that you can measure the extent of the problem and the success of any policies") have said anyone who identifies as a woman. And two have talked about traditional women's issues, then gone on to the importance of having a stable category 'woman' and being able to have the discussion in the Labour Party. So it was between these two for me: both are OK on our issue, so I'm choosing the one who's closest to what I want on other things.

And that's why I stay in the Labour Party despite everything. If we're there, we have a voice. If we're not, there's no way of influencing what will likely be the next party of government. I'm not naive, but I think those of us who can, have to try.

Agree re migration in Europe. There needs to be some honesty there and here about the incompatibility of current international human rights obligations enforced by an activist court (which is what we have in the ECHR) and effective migration control. Or we don’t control it and take the consequences.

I think there are some parallels in that in both the GFC and Covid there were arguments for saying that a crisis the government couldn’t avoid was worsened by previous bad policy choices that they could.
GFC more foreseeable (I remember people for seeing it!!) than a non flu pandemic tho so labour still lose in my view

I don't expect Starmer will get past the first 48 hours in office before the clamour for trans conversion ban and anti hate speech laws becomes unavoidable. And this being the gateway drug to self ID laws sooner rather than later.

Owen Jones, Ash Sarkar and Aaron Bastani/Novarra plus the Byline Times crowd will not let this go.

'Of course, Maggie as a hard scientist wouldn't be swayed by trans magical thinking as dear Penny has.'
I hated Margaret Thatcher at the time but yes I agree she would never have fallen for the genderwoo.
As the years have rolled on, some of what she did has been proved right but where she really fell down was that she did not seem to care about people at all.
Her Tory party would likely not have furloughed everyone during covid. In many ways the Tories are way more centrist than in the 1980s and 1990s.

'This is not 1997, when there was cash awash in the economy, and the best possible circumstances for Labour to transform public services, and Blair's iron grip on the Left (rolling over Clause Four totally castrated his internal critics).'
Indeed yes but as we saw with Corbyn, the extremists were still there in the background just waiting to make their move again. Instead of it being 'Militant tendency' (who Kinnock kicked out pre-Blair), it was anti-semitic Momentum.
Been there, done that, not sitting through that again. Bye bye Labour you never learn from your own history.

If I didn’t think it was going to be so bad I’d welcome the final debunking that we’re going back to the bloody 90s again.

That's why in some ways more importantly is who the Tories go with after 2024.

Will it be a return to One Nation Toryism with a centrist Rory Stewart type?

Ironically with his "gender friendly" views espoused on his podcast with Alastair Campbell, he would enact Two Nations Toryism, the 51% XXers and the rest.

A "modernising" Penny Mordaunt, who fancies herself as Heir To Thatcher in a better wardrobe? Of course, Maggie as a hard scientist wouldn't be swayed by trans magical thinking as dear Penny has.

Some other bland compromise candidate. Gillian Keegan, Jonny Mercer (for the swooning ladies) etc.

Or the New Conservative wing, Badenoch v Cates v Braverman.

Of course, gutless centrist Tory MPs would never let any of those latter three to the Final Two from which the leader is chosen.

They are shit scared of winning the election, they know within moments the scale of the issues will overwhelm, and the left schisms will open up, whether public service unions looking to screw the govt, a la 1970s strikes and pay demands, or leviathan expectations of NHS, or Corbynista wing opening up old scabs and sores.

I said something recently to my own MP about Starmer and Reeves starting to scale back their promises and what was going on there. He didn't say much — very discreet — but yes, lots of the more realistic people in Labour are worried that winning this election will be a poisoned chalice. Five failing chaotic years in power and then 20 in opposition.

This is the way I see it.

If this was the US, with the binary choice being Trump Stolen Vote/QAnon/Ban all abortions/handguns for teens/pull all support for Ukraine candidate versus Biden opposite of all this but extending trans rights, I would absolutely be mentally tortured.

Vote to ban all abortions incl rape/incest/mother at risk versus vote to normalise teen medicalisation...what a toxic Hobson's Choice.

We don't have this dilemma.

If this was a rerun of 1997, you knew Starmer was going to transform UK public services as Blair did versus a clapped out faux
"Family Values" John Major-led Tory party who presided over millions of repossessions, absolutely make every family significantly better off, but was going to also "streamline" trans policy, again it would kill me to vote against Starmer.

But 2024 in UK is not 2016/2020/2024 US, nor is it going to be similar to 1997 UK.
Starmer is promising to be just a bit more competent than the Tories, just a bit less corrupt, just a bit better at managing, just a little less chaotic.

There's no boldness in policies to re-nationalise water or give total protection to whistleblowers in the NHS. Or create a really progessive National Care Service. Or properly skew the tax system to reward families. Or get to grips with significant housebuilding.

There's nothing. Indeed I know someone who has a policy adviser daughter who has some deep knowledge on internal Labour Party dialog.

They are shit scared of winning the election, they know within moments the scale of the issues will overwhelm, and the left schisms will open up, whether public service unions looking to screw the govt, a la 1970s strikes and pay demands, or leviathan expectations of NHS, or Corbynista wing opening up old scabs and sores.

This is not 1997, when there was cash awash in the economy, and the best possible circumstances for Labour to transform public services, and Blair's iron grip on the Left (rolling over Clause Four totally castrated his internal critics).

If Starmer thinks that his push to drive out Corbyn and anti semitism in the party gives him Blair levels of omnipotence against the Momentum wing, he's in for a big suprise.

Just watch Starmer on Laura Kuensberg's show last Sunday. This is not a man showing any confidence or relish for the job ahead.

And I'm going to vote for him, knowing that despite all those issues, he will still find time and motivation to enact social change hobbling women and girls in perpetuity?

I don't think so.

It's totally instructional that Starmer is happy to keep the new Tories anti democratic laws against demonstrating.

When you add in the Irish/NZ/Canadian style anti online "hate" speech laws crackdown he'll undoubtedly pursue once in power, I'll be damned if I'm going to wave the white flag by voting for him.

I agree with much of what you say AgathaSpencerGregson although my sympathies are tempered by memories of how the Conservative led coalition successfully heaped the blame for the global banking crisis on Labour government spending. What goes around comes around.

I tend to think that part of what’s happening is people punishing sitting governments for the (foreseeable and inevitable) consequences of how Covid was handled.

This. Yes, difficult to see how any government would have acquitted itself well in these circumstances. Remember when everyone wondered why the UK wasn't more like New Zealand, with its isolationist stance? Jacinda Ardern was seen as a heroine. Now the tables have turned: the policy is now seen as a disaster, Jacinda was forced out, the economy is in trouble, Covid is endemic, house prices are falling and interest rates are rising.

Yes I agree with you. Especially here due to ridiculous media storms which whipped people up even more. And it was annoying then to see people not able to look forward at all.

But I also think the swing to the right in Europe is migration related. The societal fracturing that people talk about will happen and has already started.

Some posters on here confidently stated the HoL would not pass the recent bill. They were wrong. What’ll be interesting is after Starmer says it’s evil etc is whether he change much at next election.

Maybe he’ll be like Aus Labor and just keep policy as easier

Anyway one thing that unites Covid, gender and migration is people do not look forward enough and they do not consider context enough

Agree with what you say @AgathaSpencerGregson

A lot of people in denial that printing money to close down the economy and pay us to stay at home during covid has caused inflation. U.K. inflation is slower to come down because of our reliance on gas for energy (look how Germany reopened coal mines, France is 70% nuclear etc). Labour have no answers and will remove women's rights (unless you are a woman with a penis). So depressing!

I tend to think that part of what’s happening is people punishing sitting governments for the (foreseeable and inevitable) consequences of how Covid was handled. In the EU that means centre left gets a kicking. Here it’s the conservatives. The one thing people will not do is acknowledge that the current problems were unavoidable due to lockdown and furlough policies they wanted.
we all loved rishi when he was giving us free money. Now he tells us the party is over we whine. We need to grow the fuck up. Keir has no answers, only more dishonesty about the reasons for why we are where we are.

This. Which is why at the GE next year I will hold my nose and vote Conservative. For me it comes down to integrity. I can't be an active terf every day of my life, watching my lesbian community being gradually taken over by TWs and their eager-to-please idiot supporters, struggling with the emotional burden of seeing women's hard-won rights being given away by virtue-signalling politicians, and then vote for a party whose leaders say TWAW and that a woman can have a penis.

It's a matter of integrity for me. If Labour do bring in self-ID I could never forgive myself for voting for them. I'd be part of the problem.