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Original poster

Sex and gender: a simple foundational understanding

37 replies

BonfireLady · 13/07/2023 21:23

I will shortly be going in to my daughter's secondary school to discuss my review of the PHSE materials. I reviewed different year group materials for age appropriateness as well as how gender identity is presented. Thankfully only a couple of issues, the most important (IMO) being the words sex and gender being used interchangeably when discussing stereotypes and traits.

I'd like to find the most succinct and least contentious way I can of explaining my understanding of the two. I may send this over email ahead of the meeting, or bring it along as a written document to share.

Is there anything key that's missing or that I've misrepresented? Ideally looking for feedback from anyone who identifies as transgender/non-binary as well as those that don't:

  1. Everyone has a biological sex (male or female), which is observed and registered at birth and is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010.
  2. For a very small number of people (with Differences of Sex Development), sex observation at birth is difficult to ascertain and requires examination to determine. Sex (male or female) is then "assigned" and registered following the examination.
  3. Some people have a gender identity in addition to their biological sex. This means that they have a sense of being male, female or neither. For example, they may identify as male, female, non-binary or another gender.
  4. For some people who have a gender identity, this is more important to them than their biological sex when they describe themselves or wish to be described by others. For example, some biological women may request that others refer to them as men (or non-binary) and some biological men may request that others refer to them as women (or non-binary). This request may include a "preferred pronoun". If someone who has a gender identity is undergoing a reassignment (at any stage, including how they choose to present) from one gender identity to another, the reassignment is protected under the Equality Act 2010, meaning that it is unlawful to discriminate against someone for being transgender.
  5. Some people do not have a gender identity, meaning that they do not have any sense of being male, female or neither. The belief that sex is binary (male and female) is protected under the Equality Act 2010, meaning that it is unlawful to discriminate against anyone who does not wish to describe biological men as women (or non-binary) or biological women as men (or non-binary).

Obviously there's a lot more I could say e.g. gender dysphoria, sexual orientation as a protected characteristic, same sex attraction versus same gender attraction but I feel these are the kind of things that are best explored in a conversation. The intention of the above is to capture the basics as a simple foundational start point.

OP posts:
TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening · 14/07/2023 01:00

Gender reassignment is just plastic surgery.
It doesn't change someone's sex.
A fake, non working penis doesn't make a woman a man.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 13/07/2023 23:47

Agree with both PPs om the DSD point - scrap it. It's not relevant, and the bit about 'assigned' is wrong.

I'd keep it much simpler - sex and gender are not the same thing (and gender reassignment and gender identity are 2 more separate things). The basis, legal protections and implications of each one are distinct, so the words shouldn't be used interchangably.

AmuseBish · 13/07/2023 22:59

Also please be clear that, although "gender" is often used as a shorthand for "gender identity", it isn't really the same thing. For me, "gender" is the expectations or assumptions of how someone should, or does, behave/act/ skills/ desires etc based on their sex (or perceived sex).

As a female, I probably do have a gender - society assumes things about me because I am female - I can't do much about that. I don't think I have a gender identity though - I don't see that those assumptions have anything to do with me as a person, and certainly not enough to relate to as an identity.

Not trying to split hairs!

hellotowel · 13/07/2023 22:45

Sex is reality, gender is desire.

TastesLikeStrawberriesOnASummerEvening · 13/07/2023 22:37
  1. Tests would be done and sex would be determined, NOT assigned based on the appearance of genitals.
girene · 13/07/2023 22:36

Circumferences · 13/07/2023 22:07

For your point number 3 I would emphasize the belief element:

3: Some people believe they have a gender identity in addition to their biological sex. This means that they believe they feel male, female or neither. For example, they may identify as male, female, non-binary or another gender.

For your point number 4, rather than saying "for those who have a gender identity...." I would say "for those who believe they have a gender identity...."

For your point number 5 I would start with "Most people don't feel they have a gender identity. Those who do are a minority group".

Yes, this is an important point to make. Some people believe they have a gender identity, just as some people believe they have a guardian angel, an immortal soul or a paranormal aura. ...

Some of us think - with good reason - none of these things exist, and we don't want our children to be told by teachers that they do.

Although teaching children some people think there are paranormal auras and gods and all the rest is generally OK, teachers must never be allowed to teach children that there actually are such things. This has long been accepted with regard to gods, devils, angels and so on. It must be applied in the same way to gender identity and other neo-spiritualities. (Especially if the teachers themselves believe in such things.)

Really important.

senua · 13/07/2023 22:16

I don't know if it is going off piste (PHSE) but you could mention that there are times when the difference between sex and gender is important and legally recognised i.e. single sex spaces (like school changing rooms!)

Circumferences · 13/07/2023 22:07

For your point number 3 I would emphasize the belief element:

3: Some people believe they have a gender identity in addition to their biological sex. This means that they believe they feel male, female or neither. For example, they may identify as male, female, non-binary or another gender.

For your point number 4, rather than saying "for those who have a gender identity...." I would say "for those who believe they have a gender identity...."

For your point number 5 I would start with "Most people don't feel they have a gender identity. Those who do are a minority group".

RoseslnTheHospital · 13/07/2023 22:07

The issue with "gender is in your head" is that it's not. It might be for some people that believe in gender ideology, but for the rest of us what's in my head is my brain. And my brain gives rise to my personality. I have had sex-based societal expectations pushed onto me from birth to varying degrees. My personality and experiences determine how much of those sex-based societal expectations I conform to, or not.

So for me, any explanation of why gender is not interchangeable with sex needs to reference the fact that gender relies on societal/cultural expectations. Whereas sex is simply a biological fact about your body.

AmuseBish · 13/07/2023 22:04

Stonewall define transgender as someone whose gender identity and sex are different [notwithstanding the fact that all genders are different from sex]. If you use them interchangeably, trans people can't exist.

I wouldn't send a long email. I'd ask them to confirm that they understand the difference between sex and gender identity, or whether their position is that they are the same. Keep it one or two lines.

DSDs are irrelevant. You'll confuse the issue if you bring that up.

senua · 13/07/2023 22:04

the reassignment is protected under the Equality Act 2010, meaning that it is unlawful to discriminate against someone for being transgender.
EA2010 talks about reassignment and transsexuals. It doesn't mention transgender. They should be undergoing a process (but the terms are very vague and woolly) to legally change sex i.e. obtain a GRC. You can only get a GRC if you are aged at least 18 (Gender Recognition Act).
So doesn't apply to schoolchildren though there could be an argument for telling them about it for information's sake.

Transgender is a result of belief in Gender Identity. It is protected under the 'religion or belief' characteristic, not the 'gender reassignment' characteristic, because of the ruling in Maya Forstater case. The same as belief in the immutability of sex is protected.
There is no "official certification" of being transgender so people can self ID, including schoolchildren apparently.

I think.
IANAL.

RSintes · 13/07/2023 21:25

Gender is what is in your head.
Sex is what's between your legs.