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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex and gender: a simple foundational understanding

37 replies

BonfireLady · 13/07/2023 21:23

I will shortly be going in to my daughter's secondary school to discuss my review of the PHSE materials. I reviewed different year group materials for age appropriateness as well as how gender identity is presented. Thankfully only a couple of issues, the most important (IMO) being the words sex and gender being used interchangeably when discussing stereotypes and traits.

I'd like to find the most succinct and least contentious way I can of explaining my understanding of the two. I may send this over email ahead of the meeting, or bring it along as a written document to share.

Is there anything key that's missing or that I've misrepresented? Ideally looking for feedback from anyone who identifies as transgender/non-binary as well as those that don't:

  1. Everyone has a biological sex (male or female), which is observed and registered at birth and is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010.
  2. For a very small number of people (with Differences of Sex Development), sex observation at birth is difficult to ascertain and requires examination to determine. Sex (male or female) is then "assigned" and registered following the examination.
  3. Some people have a gender identity in addition to their biological sex. This means that they have a sense of being male, female or neither. For example, they may identify as male, female, non-binary or another gender.
  4. For some people who have a gender identity, this is more important to them than their biological sex when they describe themselves or wish to be described by others. For example, some biological women may request that others refer to them as men (or non-binary) and some biological men may request that others refer to them as women (or non-binary). This request may include a "preferred pronoun". If someone who has a gender identity is undergoing a reassignment (at any stage, including how they choose to present) from one gender identity to another, the reassignment is protected under the Equality Act 2010, meaning that it is unlawful to discriminate against someone for being transgender.
  5. Some people do not have a gender identity, meaning that they do not have any sense of being male, female or neither. The belief that sex is binary (male and female) is protected under the Equality Act 2010, meaning that it is unlawful to discriminate against anyone who does not wish to describe biological men as women (or non-binary) or biological women as men (or non-binary).

Obviously there's a lot more I could say e.g. gender dysphoria, sexual orientation as a protected characteristic, same sex attraction versus same gender attraction but I feel these are the kind of things that are best explored in a conversation. The intention of the above is to capture the basics as a simple foundational start point.

OP posts:
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SideWonder · 23/07/2023 15:09

Absolutely, @SerafinasGoose

SerafinasGoose · 23/07/2023 15:05

In answer to Point 2:

For a very small number of people (with Differences of Sex Development), sex observation at birth is difficult to ascertain and requires examination to determine. Sex (male or female) is then "assigned" and registered following the examination.

I'd replace the word 'assigned' in the penultimate sentence as 'determined'.

You cannot assign a biological sex, and although the sex of people with DSDs is less easy to identify they are nonetheless either male or female.

It might seem a small point but I think it's important.

SideWonder · 23/07/2023 14:59

If someone who has a gender identity is undergoing a reassignment (at any stage, including how they choose to present) from one gender identity to another, the reassignment is protected under the Equality Act 2010, meaning that it is unlawful to discriminate against someone for being transgender.

Hmmmm, up to a point, Lord Copper. Yes, this is the surface understanding, but the real test is that the protected characteristic is "gender reassignment."

This means that, say, a man who is undergoing, undergone, or about to undergo, gender reassignment, should not be treated differently to another man, who is not in this category.

This is often misunderstood as the idea that we have to treat a man undergoing gender reassignment as a woman. No, the comparator is a man not undergoing gender reassignment.

SideWonder · 23/07/2023 14:56

I think what you completely miss in your first post @BonfireLady is that the general understanding of "gender" (aside from its misuse as a synonym for 'sex') is that:

the term should be gender roles and stereotypes: that is, the constructed set of ideas of what traits, behaviours, and attributes are considered "appropriate" for each sex. This ideas are historically and culturally specific and changeable.

To put it simply:

sex = biological reality; male/female; unchangeable; ahistorical.

gender = socially constructed roles and stereotypes; masculinity/femininity; changeable; historically and culturally specific.

(and BTW, people with DSD aren't "assigned" a sex - they are one or the other sex, and are tested for their sex, but have 'differences' - just as a human born with only one hand, isn't not a human, they are a human missing something that humans normally have).

DontGetEvenGetEverything · 23/07/2023 13:28

Oh, seeing as you've got more time I'll pipe up and say I think you should have the short section on DSDs. I think it's good to stave off any absurd challenges to human sexual dimorphism, but I also think it's good to advocate for respect for privacy for people with DSDs.
So something like:
A small number of people are born with intersex conditions, also known as Differences in Sexual Development (DSDs). A person's intersex status is part of their private, medical history.

BonfireLady · 23/07/2023 12:35

Tinysoxx · 14/07/2023 16:15

OP I think you should add a sentence about how the meaning of gender has changed. If children come across gender in forms and books, they should know that gender was usually a polite way or saying sex until recently.

I've already done this in my feedback so far but it's important that I keep it central to the conversation. I totally agree @Tinysoxx
It's definitely a very important point and is covered extensively in the thread that I've linked in.

OP posts:
BonfireLady · 23/07/2023 12:32

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. Yes, aware of Safe Schools Alliance and also Transgender Trend's really helpful information.

My meeting has been pushed back to September (my request, and not linked to the government delay in getting advice out) so it's incredibly helpful to read more thoughts from others on the words sex and gender.

To this end I'm cross referencing to another thread so that I've got everything in one place and can pull it together ready for the meeting in September.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4854137-gender-as-synonym-for-sex?page=1

This meeting is part of a discussion that I've been having with the school since October last year, building upon how it relates to my family's personal situation into how our experience can help the school to tackle the difficult subject of gender identity. In that context it still feels right that I have a general reference sheet to hand at the meeting with me. The difficulty is that pesky "gender reassignment" protected characteristic and the conflation of the words sex and gender within it. The government delay seems to hinge on this too, not just whether this PC can be applied to children or not. It's quite the mess, but I won't let it distract me from my conversation with the school.

Gender as synonym for sex | Mumsnet

Ok preparing to be flamed for this one and yes it’s probably a TAAT, but why do so many feminists use the recent (Psychological/Sociological/American...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4854137-gender-as-synonym-for-sex?page=1

OP posts:
Tinysoxx · 14/07/2023 16:15

OP I think you should add a sentence about how the meaning of gender has changed. If children come across gender in forms and books, they should know that gender was usually a polite way or saying sex until recently.

NancyDrawed · 14/07/2023 16:08

NancyDrawed · 14/07/2023 08:54

I am also not a lawyer.

I think that your point 5 is probably referring to Forstater v CGD? IIRC Maya argued from a position of lack of* *'religion or belief' (in gender ideology). So while a person cannot be discriminated against for holding a belief eg religious, nor can a person who doesn't share that belief. This is really important when it comes to Gender Ideology in schools and workplaces because it appears to be that believing in GI trumps everything else, so it is good to know that lack of belief in it is protected in law

@BonfireLady

I've just seen an FAQ document that Sex Matters released

https://sex-matters.org/resources/faqs-gender-reassignment/#who

and in it there is reference to Forstater v CGDE which show that I did NOT recall the case correctly!

"In the case of Forstater v CGDE [2021] it was established that the belief that men are male and women are female, and that this cannot change and is important, is protected under Article 9 and in relation to belief discrimination in the Equality Act.
This means that employers and service providers must not harass or discriminate against people because they recognise that “transwomen” are men and “transmen” are women. Employers and service providers cannot require people to believe that someone has changed sex, or impose a blanket constraint on expressing their belief. "

I had thought that Maya's case supported a lack of belief in Gender Identity Ideology which I suppose it did in a roundabout way. Anyway, just wanted to correct my earlier error!

FAQs – gender reassignment - Sex Matters

What does it mean for someone to have the protected characteristic of “gender reassignment” under the Equality Act 2010? The government, public bodies, many employers and even employment tribunals are often confused about this.

https://sex-matters.org/resources/faqs-gender-reassignment#who

AmuseBish · 14/07/2023 13:38

At the heart of it, what I would want to know is, if my child asks if they are a boy or a girl, what are they going to tell them? Probably 'whatever you feel like' but they need to know what those things are without confusing sex and sex stereotypes!

Rightsraptor · 14/07/2023 10:01

We all have a legal sex. For the vast majority of us, it is observed (accurately) and recorded at birth.

The other way we get our legal sex is if we are granted a Gender Recognition Certificate, which changes our legal sex recorded at birth. You have to be over 18 to get one. Therefore, if you are talking to staff in a school of under 18s, every single one of them has the sex as recorded at birth.

You are wishing to uphold the law of the land.

I don't think that gets repeated often enough: we are not the ones who want to change laws (with the possible exception of repealing the GRA). We want the existing laws maintained and upheld.

Beowulfa · 14/07/2023 09:50

OP, I agree with others in keeping your first response as short and succinct as possible. The longer explanations can be used later if needed.

I would approach it by explaining that this is your understanding of sex vs gender; how will they be teaching it?

Sex- the biological reality of Homo sapiens being a dimorphic species that reproduces sexually. This is relevant in certain key situations such as changing rooms and sports, and is a factor in safeguarding (I think it's crucial you mention safeguarding at some point).

Gender- much harder to define without resorting to stereotypes and cultural assumptions eg boys predominantly play football in the UK, but in the US it's a massive girls/womens sport.

Key question for the school- how are they going to explain gender without resorting to sexist cliches?

senua · 14/07/2023 09:49

It is so easy to get derailed because it can get very complicated. I think that is probably part of the reason why schools have been captured - they don't understand all the nuances so if somebody gives them a simplistic 'how to' guide they grab it (there is no prescribed National Curriculum for R.E., they have to write their own).

Stick to RE and "some people believe". Once you have that established then you can move on to other concerns in a different meeting. Are you aware of the Safe Schools Alliance?

Homepage - Safe Schools Alliance UK

Welcome to our homepage. This explains who we are, what we do and how we are campaigning for a better understanding of child safeguarding.

https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/

BonfireLady · 14/07/2023 09:32

NancyDrawed · 14/07/2023 08:54

I am also not a lawyer.

I think that your point 5 is probably referring to Forstater v CGD? IIRC Maya argued from a position of lack of* *'religion or belief' (in gender ideology). So while a person cannot be discriminated against for holding a belief eg religious, nor can a person who doesn't share that belief. This is really important when it comes to Gender Ideology in schools and workplaces because it appears to be that believing in GI trumps everything else, so it is good to know that lack of belief in it is protected in law

Correct. It was the Forstater case that I had in mind when I wrote that point.
But having seen the wording on the EA to describe gender reassignment I've got a bit more work to do to tidy it up.

I'm in danger of derailing my own thread here but if it comes up in conversation at school (e.g. toilet or changing facilities) there are lots of talking points that stem from this fundamental point. For example:

The judgement has so many interesting possibilities for future law. For example, if (hopefully when) the EA is clarified regarding the definition of the word "sex", it will presumably help to clarify that gender and gender identity are protected as beliefs. At the moment the ambiguitity has led to all sorts of wiggle room for misinterpretation, not least by the DfE in how gender and gender identity are taught in schools. Gender reassignment as a protected characteristic would still make sense because we are being asked to respect someone's right to follow their belief in whatever way works for them (within the boundaries of where it touches upon other protected characteristics - the key bit) and be free of discrimination for doing so. A bit like wearing a hijab to school, even if it's not part of school uniform, where a woolly hat would not be permitted. That impacts no other boundaries of anyone else's protected characteristic. Whereas using the toilet or charging facilities that "align with a person's gender identity" impacts everyone who doesn't have a belief in gender identity who is using those facilities. (If girls can get changed in front of people who identify as a girl, why would we bother providing sex-segrated facilities...? And of course some schools don't now.. and we're seeing the consequences play out because funnily enough not everyone has honest intentions.. which is why sex- segregation came in in the first place.. and so on)

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senua · 14/07/2023 09:22

I can't be agender if I'm "gender non-conforming and/or refect the gender binary" (in accordance with the Stonewall et al definitions) if I don't actually believe in gender. It's a bit of a circular reference.
Circular reference? Say it ain't so. (that's sarcasm btw, in case it's a bit early for some people. Try asking Stonewall for a non-circular definition of 'woman')

RE people know all about 'theism' and 'atheism'. They should be able to grasp the idea of 'gender' and 'agender'. And society writes the dictionary, not Stonewall.

BonfireLady · 14/07/2023 09:14

*and/or reject the gender binary

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BonfireLady · 14/07/2023 08:59

AmuseBish · 13/07/2023 22:59

Also please be clear that, although "gender" is often used as a shorthand for "gender identity", it isn't really the same thing. For me, "gender" is the expectations or assumptions of how someone should, or does, behave/act/ skills/ desires etc based on their sex (or perceived sex).

As a female, I probably do have a gender - society assumes things about me because I am female - I can't do much about that. I don't think I have a gender identity though - I don't see that those assumptions have anything to do with me as a person, and certainly not enough to relate to as an identity.

Not trying to split hairs!

You've given me some great food for thought on this one!
I think I'll say "gender identity, sometimes shortened to gender".

Personally I don't use gender as a word to describe society's expectations of me. I use "sexist stereotypes" or "sex-based expectations". One of the issues that I had with the PSHE materials was that there was a lesson section and slide called "gender stereotypes".

It blew my mind for quite a while that I was effectively agender or non-binary by some definitions... until the penny dropped that this is only the case if I believe that gender (identity) exists. I can't be agender if I'm "gender non-conforming and/or refect the gender binary" (in accordance with the Stonewall et al definitions) if I don't actually believe in gender. It's a bit of a circular reference. It was quite liberating to realise that I'd been grappling with how I was "gender confirming" in some ways and "gender non-conforming" in others. I work in IT, I have long hair and I am female... Does my career choice make me non-conforming or does saying that mean I believe IT belongs to men? What about all the women who have short hair but aren't making any kind of statement about being gender conforming or not?... In the end I decided it was the word gender that was the problem for me. At that point everything seemed a lot clearer. But obviously gender and gender identity are important for those that have a belief in it.

I'd even go so far as to say that I'm happy to accept that, for those that believe in gender (identity), there are 72 or more genders. I'm also happy to accept that someone would consider me "unsaved" and not amongst the 44,000 who will be saved on the day of reckoning because I am not a Christian.

It all comes down to how gender (identity) is presented: as fact or belief.

OP posts:
BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 14/07/2023 08:58

Yes - all PCs work in both directions.

Having a belief is protected and not having it is protected. Being married and not being married have equal status as PCs. Being a man and being a woman both give the PC of sex.

NancyDrawed · 14/07/2023 08:54

I am also not a lawyer.

I think that your point 5 is probably referring to Forstater v CGD? IIRC Maya argued from a position of lack of* *'religion or belief' (in gender ideology). So while a person cannot be discriminated against for holding a belief eg religious, nor can a person who doesn't share that belief. This is really important when it comes to Gender Ideology in schools and workplaces because it appears to be that believing in GI trumps everything else, so it is good to know that lack of belief in it is protected in law

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 14/07/2023 08:52

@NancyDrawed makes a very good point, amd one that's widely misunderstood - under the EA the comparator is always sombody who is the same apart from the protected characteristic. You must not be treated less favourably (can, and sometimes need to be, treated differently - e.g. accommodating disability) than someone who is like you in all other respects. The ES doesn't give the right to be treated the same as someone with a different protected characteristic (or who is different in other ways, such as qualifications).

So a woman who has just qualified as an engineer can't be treated less favourably than a mam who has just qualified as an engineer. But can't demand the same salary as the CEO. A parent can't have less favourable annual leave terms than a non parent. A gay man can't be treated worse than a straight man. And a boy proposing to undergo gender reassignment must be treated as well as a boy who isn’t.; he doesn't gain the right to be treated exactly the same as a girl.

And there is no hierarchy of characteristics. The religious belief of a Muslim is as important as the sex of woman, the parental status of a father, the sexuality of a lesbian etc. Usually the rights and needs of someone with one PC don't clash with those of another. But when they do, there is no automatic right for PC A to trump PC B. You have to find a compromise that works equally well for everyone.

senua · 14/07/2023 08:33

I like how you've used believe. That's how I was going to word it but I thought it may come across as dismissive.
No no no no no!! It's not dismissive, far from it.

a) the whole of the RE syllabus is "some people believe". They go on to explain what it is that some people believe. But the whole point of RE is "some people believe (corollary: others don't)".
b) it is a found principle in law, from the Maya Forstater case. People are allowed to believe in Gender Criticality, others are allowed to believe in Gender Identity.

As others have said, your OP is a bit wordy.
KISS and grab their attention. All you need is "some people believe".

NancyDrawed · 14/07/2023 08:16

Regarding the protected characteristic (PC) of Gender Reassignment, the wording in the EA 2010 means that school children ARE covered if I understand it correctly, as it could be argued that they are 'proposing to undergo' gender reassignment.

However, it is important to be clear that the PC of Gender Reassignment means that a person can't be treated any differently to any other member of their sex class (unless they have a GRC which means they can be treated as a member of their legal sex in most but not all cases - but this doesn't apply to schoolchildren as they are too young to have a GRC)

In other words, the PC of gender reassignment doesn't mean that eg a boy should be treated as if they are a girl, but rather that they should not be treated differently to any other boy.

Florissante · 14/07/2023 07:25

RSintes · 13/07/2023 21:25

Gender is what is in your head.
Sex is what's between your legs.

Gender is in your mind.
Sex is in every cell of your body.

BonfireLady · 14/07/2023 07:22

Thanks everyone. Some great points here. The key for me is that is non-contentious and not dismissive of the fact that there are people who feel differently. Since I got my head around it all, I've always thought about it as similar (ish) to religion. I don't believe in any god(s) but it'd be pretty inflammatory if I said "Science created the universe. God is in your head". When someone believes something, it is at the core of their thoughts and frame of reference. My belief that there is no god is no more important than someone else's belief that there is at a foundational level. Setting laws that are baked in belief and/or that belief needing affirmation from others are a different story.

I'll drop the DSD one. It can be talked around instead. I put it in because it inevitably seems to come up pretty early on but the nuances around why everyone is either (biologically) male or female are better off in conversation.

I had used the word "assigned" in quotes because that's the preferred term used by people who believe in gender identity, so trying to strike a balance. With point 2 gone, that disappears but after reading the exact wording of the Equality Act on gender reassignment... several times..., having previously only looked at the EHRC guidance (totally agree @senua that it's woolly!), I'm going to bring back the word "assigned" to help make sense of "reassignment". Rather unhelpfully, the EA conflates sex and gender on this point. So I'll make it clear that of those who believe in sex being "assigned", some people "reassign". The EA says nothing about it needing to relate to a GRC application though. The wording on that point is going to take some thinking about.

@Circumferences I like how you've used believe. That's how I was going to word it but I thought it may come across as dismissive. When I shared my written feedback (the meeting is to discuss my feedback) I said that I had reviewed it through the lens of whether gender identity is presented as belief or fact. My hesitation was that for a long time, I believed that I had a gender identity because "everyone knows if they are male or female. You just do". I've since realised, mainly through this board, that the only reason I know it is because it's a biological fact. How I feel and the "role" I play in my life are a combination of my personality and how I choose to go along with or push back on society's expectations of me as a female.

The audience at the discussion is slightly larger so my plan is to have an easy foundational reference for those attending. I think I'll print it out and take it with me to hand out.

OP posts:
Beenhereforever1978 · 14/07/2023 01:09

Thankyou for point 2, I was beginning to think I was going a bit mad after our mandatory discrimination training a couple of weeks ago. I was told in the mandatory training video that sex is assigned at birth.

I thought "it's not though is it, it's observed".

It's been bothering me ever since, I'm in my probation period so don't really feel I can pipe up yet but we're a bloody LAW FIRM! Surely we're supposed to get his stuff right and if we can't, how can we represent clients who may be facing disciplinary action or worse for being GC.

Sorry to derail.

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