Working with teens, I'm struggling with the pronoun issue in the office.

Just use the name and construct sentences differently - I work with adults, there is no way I am ever going to indulge in the harm that this ideology is causing to extremely vulnerable people.

In a similar position I have:

• used names and pronouns to demonstrate I respect the child's chosen gender identity and am not being gratuitously difficult
• made a clear distinction between gender identity and biological sex whenever it is relevant.

So [fake example] "Amy identifies as a girl, but it's important to remember that she is still biologically male. Given her history of harmful sexual behaviour, I think there would be a safeguarding risk if she were to share a room with Beth on the summer camp."

It was largely effective. It feels a bit clunky but it gets the point across.

I refer to people by their name. It is not just about people wishing to be they or she when born male, it is also if I have not met them or spoken before, and they have a name reflecting their birth or heritage which I am up until then unaware is male or female.

But back to the OP - I don't think it's very helpful to vulnerable young people for them to be encouraged to think other people don't matter. This is not a recipe for success in life. In fact many vulnerable young people benefit a lot from thinking about others and looking outwards, not only focusing on themselves.

Telling young people that others getting pronouns wrong means they are 'hated' is incredibly dangerous for their mental health and also obviously absurd given it's really difficult and takes some practice.

If you accept pronouns you're accepting you are less important than the person demanding the different-from-normal pronouns. It's all about signalling who's more important, power and control in my opinion. It reminds me of coercive control.

IF EVERYONE demands individual pronouns it becomes absolutely impossible to keep track and it's really hard because your brain is working against the rules it expects - you're changing the function of pronouns in language, not just the words used - like substituting an adjective for a noun.

It's absolutely impossible to not make mistakes and that's the point. Remember in Denise Fahmy's trial where the witness who was demanding 'they/them' pronouns for a person being discussed and then abjectly failed to keep to this himself using he/him all the time and eventually giving up IIRC? TRAs can't do it either.

It's all about a paper thin reason to 'burn the witch'. TRAs don't get crucified for making mistakes, middle aged women do. We can never do anything right. Personally I refuse to accept that I'm less worthy and I have reasons why I can't cope with the cognitive load - many people do. It's not an easy thing for many, and somehow in all the 'being kind and respectful' there's not much respect for that.

If a predator should find out about this double-life, they've got a nice easy hold here.

If safeguarding is truly the concern and they think the child is in danger if the parents find out, then why aren't they worried that a fellow pupil might let it slip to the parents on a Friday, or the last day of term? When this child won't be able to seek help from school? A managed disclosure is much lower risk!

100% this. Schools aren't doing proper safeguarding if they allow secrets from parents in this way.

Fuck that shit.

I would rather be unemployed and living in a skip before I bow down and accept all this pronouns bollocks.

I would stick to names and avoid pronouns completely

@FriendofJoanne

"With gender it's having the fear of being labelled transphobic if I try and talk about the harms with them."

Is it actually your job to talk to them about their gender identity, or is this just something that you want to do because your personal belief is that it is wrong?

It seems that you are working with at-risk youth. Using their chosen pronoun would be a sign of respect, and for at-risk youth, that would be beneficial, not harmful. A pronoun is not something that "can't be reversed" if their future self decides that they do want to identify as the gender that traditionally matches their sex. Respecting their choice (even when they are not present) will not harm them.

Even if I could re-learn English, doing so in this context would be to reinforce gender stereotypes (as the Venn diagram of all the girls I teach who don't think they're girls and all the girls I teach with short hair and trousers is a perfect circle), which goes against all my beliefs, and what I think is in the best interests of these girls.

Explain to SLT that if a child is being referred to by opposite sex pronouns at school, without the parents' knowledge, then the parents are very likely to find out from someone who isn't a teacher. Instead of a managed disclosure, it will be a surprise reveal, and that is surely far more risky for the child.

SLT can tell staff they are not allowed to tell the parents. They cannot control what every single other pupil in a secondary school says. Or what their parents say. Before now, on social media, I have seen devout religious teenagers bragging about telling parents about seeing a girl out of hijab, and getting that girl "disciplined". This stuff happens. Children also get blackmailed over things like secret school lives. If a predator should find out about this double-life, they've got a nice easy hold here.

If safeguarding is truly the concern and they think the child is in danger if the parents find out, then why aren't they worried that a fellow pupil might let it slip to the parents on a Friday, or the last day of term? When this child won't be able to seek help from school?

A managed disclosure is much lower risk!

I don't undestand why you say that. The OP asked about pronouns, several people said they avoid them. I said that doesn't settle my mind.
Are you saying it doesn't matter which pronouns we use? I feel you're making an important point but not sure what.

The thing is, it's not about pronouns really it's about people wanting you to believe things that are just obviously untrue. Of course it feels weird and counterintuitive. They are relying on people's politeness and the be kind movement to get away with this shit.

These people want control over our thoughts and our language. We owe it to ourselves not to let that happen.

In the end, I think it boils down to a hatred of middle-aged women who have fought for women's rights all their lives.

I am GC. My DC’s friend group includes a large number of people who use alternate pronouns. I address her friends by their preferred names and pronouns. I also use those names and pronouns even if it is just DH and I talking because it is easier to avoid making a mistake around the teenagers if I am consistent.

As Stonewall have deemed that anything that is not complete capitulation to their demands is transphobia, I'm not sure how much we should be bothered?

@FriendofJoanne you have my support. I am in a not dissimilar position. Listening to detransitioners who feel let down by the "adults" who should have been caring about them is heart breaking. I do believe many young people believe they have no choice but to "come out" because of confusing messaging from those who should be holding the line firm for them to be who they are, perfect as they are, without society, government, teachers, and the internet telling them they need to change sex identification for acceptance.

What a great discussion. I know that the guidelines for schools have been delayed yet again. I have heard (but can't be certain) that one of the reasons is they didn't reflect Cass, plus concerns about schools thoughtlessly socially transitioning children. They'll be out for consultation so hopefully many of these nuanced issues for adults working with young people will get shared.

Haven't Stonewall decreed that avoiding pronouns is transphobic?

I work in an impacted field (with autistic teens) and I respect pronouns in the presence of the person. When talking about them I try to avoid pronoun use or use "they".

I have been there a long time but what I did was kind of raise that we have to work within national and legal guidelines, that I had read Cass had found it raised some difficult points to ponder and the education guidance had also changed to be more conservative (small c). I also mentioned that the equality act means we have to be careful with arrangements and recommendations as there is no heirarchy of protected characteristics and there could potentially be a conflict, surely (disingenuous baffled questioning again on my part) if we made recommendations (for example, recommending access to toilets of identified sex rather than actual) that could impact those with other protected characteristics (eg religious needs for single sex spaces for modesty). It would not be defendable under equality act if we tried to say this person's protected characteristic is more important than the other. So whilst we need to be mindful of privacy and dignity, that has to be EVERYONE's, not just the trans teen's. I also mentioned that I found the tendency to frame any such questioning as "transphobic" when really its about duty of care to everyone, and protecting vulnerable kids from taking irreversible pathways at a young age, which is what Cass says too.

Once I started these mutterings, I found that other middle aged women had similar opinions. Young women hadn't really thought beyond 'be kind', but were generally prepared to consider , and the younger men were most vociferously pro-trans.

@Dissidente how does it allow girls the illusion they are not girls. A word doesn't have to describe their experience. It is our lived reality. If anything it would stop this ridiculousness of assuming that language creates rather than describes reality. A person is a person, we don't need a word to tell us that this person is female, it is obvious.