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Sunak and Braverman’s trans jokes ‘unacceptable and dangerous’ says Parliament equalities chief Caroline Nokes

93 replies

IwantToRetire · 11/07/2023 20:44

Caroline Nokes, Tory chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, warns against ‘seeking to make a group of people the butt of jokes’

Parliament’s women and equalities chair Caroline Nokes has given a dressing down to Rishi Sunak and Suella Braverman over jokes about trans people.

Earlier this month, Suella Braverman joked in the Commons chamber that “we can’t rule out” Keir Starmer “running to be Labour’s first female prime minister” – while a leaked recording surfaced of Rishi Sunak last month telling Tory MPs in the 1922 Committee that the Liberal Democrats were “busy trying to convince everybody that women clearly have penises”.

Ms Nokes, a Tory MP who chairs the Women and Equalities Committee, told news podcast What the Trans?: “I think it’s hugely othering, it’s very dangerous, and it’s seeking to make a group of people the butt of jokes. I just think it’s unacceptable.”
Addressing Ms Braverman’s remark, Ms Nokes said: “To be quite frank, it was a ridiculous comment. I thought it was very telling that there was silence in the House, there was tumbleweed rolling down the aisles… let’s not use the House of Commons chamber to poke fun at marginalised groups or some sort of school debating society, we should be setting ourselves higher standards.”

Of Mr Sunak’s remarks, she said: “I just think we need to be better than that, we really do.”

The MP – who attended Cabinet under Theresa May but has remained on the backbenches under Boris Johnson, Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak – acknowledged that her argument “may be failing within my own party at the moment” but stressed some Tory MPs are supportive of transgender people.

She also expressed “grave concerns” about the state of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the nation’s equality watchdog, after a Channel 4 News investigation unearthed claims of a toxic environment and a rapid staff turnover.
“I get reports from EHRC staff anonymously that it is not a happy ship,” Ms Nokes revealed.

She expressed concerns that there was a “very particular direction of travel when it comes to gender critical views” at the regulator since the organisation’s chair Baroness Falkner was appointed in 2020 by then-equalities minister Liz Truss.
Ms Nokes said: “I look at the appointment now through the prism of, this was an appointment done by Liz Truss, who had a very particular agenda when it came to equalities.”

Part of quite a long interview in iNews https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/rishi-sunak-suella-braverman-trans-jokes-parliament-equalities-chief-2467613

I would have thought as a Chair she shouldn't voice an opinion. It is her role to hear all sides of an issue, and try and find a common ground or agreed way forward. Seems nobody has standards anymore. Flag waving seems to take precedence.

If iNews is behind a paywall for you go to https://archive.ph and copy in the iNews web link as it has been archived there.

Sunak and Braverman's trans jokes are 'unacceptable' says Parliament's equalities chief

Caroline Nokes, Tory chair of the Women and Equalities Committee, warns against 'seeking to make a group of people the butt of jokes'

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/rishi-sunak-suella-braverman-trans-jokes-parliament-equalities-chief-2467613

OP posts:
StefanosHill · 12/07/2023 11:19

Floisme · 12/07/2023 11:17

No it doesn't, although who knows, an election defeat, particularly if it's a bad one, can take a party to some very strange places. But for the next year or so, I will viewing a lot of statements from Tory MPs through this prism.

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I’m more concerned what Labour will do in that case. Given it means they’d have won and are pro gender ideology

Floisme · 12/07/2023 11:17

StefanosHill · 12/07/2023 11:04

It doesn’t mean she’ll get far though

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No it doesn't, although who knows, an election defeat, particularly if it's a bad one, can take a party to some very strange places. But for the next year or so, I will viewing a lot of statements from Tory MPs through this prism.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 12/07/2023 11:17

I wrote to Ms Nike a couple of years ago, expressing my concern about the possibility of people who still possessed male genitalia but who ‘identified’ as women, being allowed to access female only healthcare facilities, toilets , changing rooms , dormitories and prisons . I suggested that some of these people might be tempted to revert to a more traditional view of sexual predilections.

She assured me that ‘ the committee had ensured that safeguards were in place to prevent this.’. Time to have another look at the day job, Ms Nokes.

Auto correct 😈 changed the surname, but I’ve allowed it to stand.

StefanosHill · 12/07/2023 11:04

Floisme · 12/07/2023 11:03

Of course she is Grin And she won't be the only one I'm sure!

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It doesn’t mean she’ll get far though

NonHypotheticalLurkingParent · 12/07/2023 11:04

What she’s saying is incomprehensible. She thinks the appointment of Baroness Faulkner by Liz Truss was an ideological one, but can’t see that appointing someone who’s views are heavily loaded towards trans rights is even more ideological.

The EHRC needs to produce balanced regulations based on competing rights where necessary. The rights of women have been ignored in the formation of trans rights by so many organisations because they’ve been lead to believe they don’t need to take them into consideration. Activists, and others with personal agendas, quietly pushed their one sided views for years. Some have admitted to it, Christine Burns’ ‘under the radar’ comment for example. One of the people involved in producing the Yogyakarta Principles has gone on record to say they didn’t even consider the competing rights of women in discussions.

Anyone who dismisses the competing rights of any protected characteristic and can not understand why legislation should be balanced should not have a position in the EHRC. Noakes will try to push that they are transphobic for now seeking true equality in the meeting - that’s her belief. Maybe one day she’ll have an epiphany.

Floisme · 12/07/2023 11:03

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/07/2023 10:21

I imagine Nokes is limbering up for another leadership contest in 18 months time

Ugh. No fucking way.

Of course she is Grin And she won't be the only one I'm sure!

Blanketsburg · 12/07/2023 10:59

ScrollingLeaves · 12/07/2023 00:47

“acknowledged that her argument “may be failing within my own party at the moment” but stressed some Tory MPs are supportive of transgender people”.

I should think all Tory MPs are supportive

of trans people. Is she disingenuous or missing the point?

Been thinking for a while now about this word "support".

Seems like it's come to mean "accept uncritically every claim and demand made by a person claiming to be trans / immediately provide what they want".

Floisme · 12/07/2023 10:56

Rudderneck · 12/07/2023 10:30

I think they mean if the Tories lose the election.

Though I think they'd be fools to let him, unless something changes.

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Yes, I meant that if the Tories lose the election, then Sunak will be expected to resign, as is the tradition.

ScrollingLeaves · 12/07/2023 10:46

Aaron95 · Today 08:04
No matter what your view on trans issues, making cheap jokes at the expense of a minority group is not how I expect political leaders to behave.

It was not at the expense of a minority group. It was at the expense of politicians who are using that minority group to get votes from harmful trans activists.

StefanosHill · 12/07/2023 10:37

I can’t see her getting anywhere

Look what happened to Mordaunt

Plus things are changing, even if Labour win the global situation will mean towards a hard line gov

Look at EU for what’s going on, just not here atm

Rudderneck · 12/07/2023 10:30

Froodwithatowel · 12/07/2023 10:09

Given that Sunak is likely to fall on his sword after the next election

Seriously?! Argh.

How on earth do they expect the electorate to vote when they can't put up a leader who is actually up for and there to run the full term? So sick of this. They're useless, all the left identifying parties are dangerously insane, wtf are you supposed to vote for.

I think they mean if the Tories lose the election.

Though I think they'd be fools to let him, unless something changes.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 12/07/2023 10:30

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/07/2023 10:21

I imagine Nokes is limbering up for another leadership contest in 18 months time

Ugh. No fucking way.

I have been a member of the Conservative Party, occasionally with gritted teeth, for many years, and if Nokes becomes leader I’ll eat my membership card.
she might get some limited influence on the coat tails of a mordaunt victory, I suppose. But if that happens I’m burning my membership card.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/07/2023 10:21

I imagine Nokes is limbering up for another leadership contest in 18 months time

Ugh. No fucking way.

StefanosHill · 12/07/2023 10:10

Froodwithatowel · 12/07/2023 10:09

Given that Sunak is likely to fall on his sword after the next election

Seriously?! Argh.

How on earth do they expect the electorate to vote when they can't put up a leader who is actually up for and there to run the full term? So sick of this. They're useless, all the left identifying parties are dangerously insane, wtf are you supposed to vote for.

I read it as Sunak losing first

Froodwithatowel · 12/07/2023 10:09

Given that Sunak is likely to fall on his sword after the next election

Seriously?! Argh.

How on earth do they expect the electorate to vote when they can't put up a leader who is actually up for and there to run the full term? So sick of this. They're useless, all the left identifying parties are dangerously insane, wtf are you supposed to vote for.

Beowulfa · 12/07/2023 10:03

FFS they're not making jokes at the expense of trans people. They're mocking the on-record position of their political opponents.

If politicians spout patently absurd bollocks ("1% of women have penises") they can expect to have the piss taken.

Floisme · 12/07/2023 09:14

Given that Sunak is likely to fall on his sword after the next election, I imagine Nokes is limbering up for another leadership contest in 18 months time, and what better way to prove your mettle than with a public rebuke of your leader and unpopular Home Secretary.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 12/07/2023 08:35

JacquelinePot · 12/07/2023 07:22

Ricky Grevais has spoken about how people seeking offence are not very good at understanding how jokes work. There's a difference between the subject and the object.

As for comments by Sunak and Braverman, I don't even think they were jokes. Just factual, humorous comments. Starmer and the Lib Dems were the figures of fun, not trans people.

As for Nokes, I'd absolutely love to now why she's constantly grinding this particular axe.

Exactly this. The mockery is at the expense of the political opponent, and is in each case well-deserved.
nokes is just attention seeking.

Jigslaw · 12/07/2023 08:24

Sunak didn't say anything that isn't true, I wouldn't call it a joke. At this point the comment about KS isn't out of the realm of possibility which highlights the ridiculousness of it all.

WhoWants2Know · 12/07/2023 08:21

Isn't she assuming Keir Starmer's gender? What is actually stopping Starmer from identifying as female and campaigning for prime minister? Other people seem to do it.

Froodwithatowel · 12/07/2023 08:15

StefanosHill · 12/07/2023 07:07

But Sunak was describing reality, it's not a joke.

This

This.

The hushed voice, head tilt and extreme signals of excessive and unusual respect - regardless of behaviour including the extremely unacceptable and extremely ridiculous - is what got us into this mess. And now that extreme virtue signal one way is usually linked to making clear that women not only don't get that equality of respect, they get less than the everybody else norm to make clear they're lesser than TQ.

This is a call to prayer. The answer is fuck off.

We've got men shouting in the streets to punch women who say no to them, and she's wittering about holding a name in the mouth without sufficient piety and seriousness of thought. Get a fucking grip for pete's sake and stop with the religious performativeness.

WickedSerious · 12/07/2023 08:14

Saying that a woman can't have a penis isn't a joke though is it?

It's one of those pesky facts that some people have such a huge problem with these days.

SquirrelSoShiny · 12/07/2023 08:09

Bunnyfuller1 · 11/07/2023 21:50

I don’t label anyone. Live and let live. Some of the narratives I read about trans sound uncomfortably like the same words said by anti gay attitudes a few years ago. Swap the key words. It’s there.

Why don't you read the Ginny thread that's running at the minute? That will be an eye opener for you.

Aaron95 · 12/07/2023 08:04

No matter what your view on trans issues, making cheap jokes at the expense of a minority group is not how I expect political leaders to behave.

JacquelinePot · 12/07/2023 07:37

Bunnyfuller1 · 11/07/2023 21:50

I don’t label anyone. Live and let live. Some of the narratives I read about trans sound uncomfortably like the same words said by anti gay attitudes a few years ago. Swap the key words. It’s there.

Not this again. I know i shouldn't bite but It's such a basic logic fail.

People in days gone by being wrong about homosexuality doesn't mean that people now are wrong about transgenderism.

Homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone. It doesn't demand that people hurt themselves. Homosexuality didn't suppress free speech. It didn't set up clinics where teenage girls get their tits cut off. If didn't teach little kids, in school, that playing with certain toys means that they were born in the wrong body. It didn't put kids on puberty blocking drugs, the same ones we use to chemically castrate dex offenders. It didn't put men in women's prisons. Or in women's sports. If you can't see the difference, please read the Break it down for me thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Break it down for me? | Mumsnet

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me