Page 3 | Where to Start

PepeParapluie · 2023-07-10T14:34:44+00:00

I’ve been lurking for a while here and have seen lots of thoughtful, insightful and wise comments from the regular posters here. You are doing a good thing in creating a space where these issues can be discussed fearlessly and there are definitely lurkers like me watching and learning, even if it does take a while to pluck up the courage to say so! I have spent lots of time reading (not just here) and learning about sex & gender issues and think I am now settled in my own gender critical viewpoint, and could discuss fairly confidently most of the issues thrown up. However, it would take hours of discussion to cover all the ground, and often other people won’t have the time or inclination to spend hours discussing it with me. Sometimes opportunities have arisen to discuss these issues with friends but l struggle to focus on the main and most accessible points. Many of my friends just haven’t thought much about it and are TWAW by default if you like - think ‘live and let live’ and why wouldn’t we just be kind, but not because they’ve really engaged with things, just because that’s what seems to be socially accepted. So I thought I’d ask - where do you start when discussing all this with people? What do you think are the clearest and easiest places to start for people who are new to the gender critical side? How do you boil it all down?

AlisonDonut · 10/07/2023 18:51

MixTapeMel · 10/07/2023 18:45

@Datun

"Also, the fact that it's not about using women's spaces, but using the women in those spaces is something that is a bit of a penny drop moment for some people.

The space is irrelevant. It's the presence of the women and girls in the space that provides the validation.

Women are the resource. They are the tool. Their presence is crucial. "

Hi there, I have been lurking for a while and am trying to get my head around things. What is meant by the above? Is the reason that third spaces (e.g. gender neutral loos) are rejected by TRAs as what seems to me a perfectly logical / reasonable solution to the issue of loos because there will probably be no women in them?

I really don't understand the loo thing, why can't we just have mens, womens and gender neutral and then everyone is happy?

Robin Moira Wright a prominent lawyer who says he is a woman, says that 'gender neutral toilets' are a 'ghetto'.

So he uses the women's toilets.

The moment he sets foot in one, he is making the women's toilets 'gender neutral' and into the 'ghetto' that he despises. So we all have to use a ghetto because this lawyer who says he is a woman wants it.

Take the Hampstead pools.

There was a mens, a mixed sex and a womans.

The mixed sex wasn't good enough, they had a consultation which they never reported the results of, and made the women's to be 'female gender' not female sex.

So the males get to use, if they wish, all 3 pools.

And the women, get nothing that is single sex at all.

This ideology obliterates everything that is single sex. From Brownies and Guides to the WI. And everything in between. They have infiltrated the whole lot.

MixTapeMel · 10/07/2023 18:45

@Datun

"Also, the fact that it's not about using women's spaces, but using the women in those spaces is something that is a bit of a penny drop moment for some people.

The space is irrelevant. It's the presence of the women and girls in the space that provides the validation.

Women are the resource. They are the tool. Their presence is crucial. "

Hi there, I have been lurking for a while and am trying to get my head around things. What is meant by the above? Is the reason that third spaces (e.g. gender neutral loos) are rejected by TRAs as what seems to me a perfectly logical / reasonable solution to the issue of loos because there will probably be no women in them?

I really don't understand the loo thing, why can't we just have mens, womens and gender neutral and then everyone is happy?

ArabeIIaScott · 10/07/2023 17:28

My question is generally why is it that women are met with violent threats, extreme rhetoric and such rage, when they raise the issue of women's rights.

There are unfortunately many examples of women losing their jobs, being arrested, being threatened, attacked or abused for raising any of these issues - for asking questions, or attending meetings or stating their beliefs that sex is immutable (and people wonder why more women don't speak up!).

Are women allowed to talk about women's rights? Or are women's rights 'transphobic'? Why is the response so extreme?

Datun · 10/07/2023 17:10

PepeParapluie · 10/07/2023 16:45

That thread looks really helpful, thanks @Leafstamp , I’ll have a read.

I agree that sport and that prison case are a sort of gateway for lots of people. It’s hard to remember now but I think sport might have been what originally made me think more critically about things.

The ‘good faith’ threads on here a while ago really made me think too, and one thing that really stuck with me was a post (I can’t remember who by now!) or series of posts asking what gender identity actually is and especially what children mean when they say they want to be the opposite sex. I hadn’t really questioned the actual meaning of gender ideology as a thing before then (perhaps that’s daft).

It also just made me think that although the GC side are accused of not supporting or accepting gender non-conforming kids, surely the worst show of support for gender non-conformity is to support transition - i.e to make a gender non-confirming boy a gender-confirming girl. That’s the opposite of supporting gender non-conformity, isn’t it? I’m probably not explaining myself very well!

But this is part of my issue, I’ve now got so many thoughts in my head about all this that I struggle to neatly articulate and explain them to people who haven’t spent so much time steeped in it.

yes it's frustrating when you are the one realising the magnitude of it all, and people don't really get it.

Sport and prisons are usually the ones that they will agree with you on. But unless they are going to be discussing it in public, they won't see that that makes them outrageously transphobic.

Also, the fact that it's not about using women's spaces, but using the women in those spaces is something that is a bit of a penny drop moment for some people.

The space is irrelevant. It's the presence of the women and girls in the space that provides the validation.

Women are the resource. They are the tool. Their presence is crucial.

It's that kind of cynical and rocksolid sexism that will do it for some people.

Tallisker · 10/07/2023 16:54

Eddie Izzard is high profile and a good demonstration of what self ID actually looks like in real life.

Plus the Scottish government's difficulties with their Gender Reform bill and the pink-legging-ed rapist. This is the reality.

Original poster

PepeParapluie · 10/07/2023 16:45

That thread looks really helpful, thanks @Leafstamp , I’ll have a read.

I agree that sport and that prison case are a sort of gateway for lots of people. It’s hard to remember now but I think sport might have been what originally made me think more critically about things.

The ‘good faith’ threads on here a while ago really made me think too, and one thing that really stuck with me was a post (I can’t remember who by now!) or series of posts asking what gender identity actually is and especially what children mean when they say they want to be the opposite sex. I hadn’t really questioned the actual meaning of gender ideology as a thing before then (perhaps that’s daft).

It also just made me think that although the GC side are accused of not supporting or accepting gender non-conforming kids, surely the worst show of support for gender non-conformity is to support transition - i.e to make a gender non-confirming boy a gender-confirming girl. That’s the opposite of supporting gender non-conformity, isn’t it? I’m probably not explaining myself very well!

But this is part of my issue, I’ve now got so many thoughts in my head about all this that I struggle to neatly articulate and explain them to people who haven’t spent so much time steeped in it.

OP posts:

EmpressaurusOfCats · 10/07/2023 16:23

Quite a lot of people will have heard, at least vaguely, of the Scottish rapist who was in a women’s prison.

Leafstamp · 10/07/2023 16:21

Good question OP and good to hear you're wanting to broach the topic with friends etc.

I think sport is quite a good place to start - people can relate to it and its blatantly obvious that having men competing against women is a ridiculous idea. I find it can be helpful to treat the whole topic like I might with any other current affairs issues.... ' did you see that...?' 'I was reading an article and it said....'
Or 'my friend was saying that.....'

You might also get inspiration from here :

Break it down for me? | Mumsnet

Hi all, I am fairly new to the discussion on the impact that transwomen are having on women generally and I want to more fully understand the issues (...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me