Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GC - how to prepare kids

37 replies

Embarra55ed · 09/07/2023 15:20

My kids are very young (5 and 3) but I’m conscious that in the not too distant future they’re going to be exposed to all kinds of confusing messages about the world.

I’d like to bring them up with a strong and secure knowledge that their own bodies are perfect and that they can choose to wear whatever clothes, love who they like, do what they want (as long as it doesn’t harm others) without having to change their bodies in any way. I want them to understand that they have a biological sex and it is immutable.

Obviously I’ve started talking about these things in an age appropriate way already, and as I have one of each sex they already understand physical differences, but I wondered if anyone could recommend any good books or other resources that I could use to lay the groundwork before peers and potentially school start trying to brainwash them (sorry if that sounds paranoid!).

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Thatgirl1981 · 11/07/2023 20:03

Segat111 · 11/07/2023 16:25

For the ones at the back:

'Gender' comprises a list of arbitrary (and often offensive) sex-based stereotypes.

I don’t even care about all of that it’s just not true that’s it

I told my children
what to say if a teacher tells them there are more than two sex’s

that gender is made up and they really mean sex

and that whatever you were you can’t change sex

Segat111 · 11/07/2023 16:25

For the ones at the back:

'Gender' comprises a list of arbitrary (and often offensive) sex-based stereotypes.

Carouselfish · 10/07/2023 10:49

I've posted this before but I Am a Tiger is a great picture book about...a mouse who thinks he's a tiger and tries to justify it and then tells all the other animals what they are.

I also think just saying a lot of anyone can wear anything or like anything, doesn't matter if they are boys or girls. But also that boys and girls are built differently and men are just physically stronger.

Also having a separate inclusive narrative not presuming they will be straight as don't want any self hating homophobia. So I say if you ever get married to a boy or girl etc.

Also, separating out not being mean to anyone, people can think what they like, pretend what they like, long as its not hurting anyone else. But keeping that grounded in reality, just because one person believes something doesn't mean you have to too.

SafeAsAMouse · 10/07/2023 09:47

My son is growing his hair long. He’s 8. I’ve told him that he can do that but he can’t change if he’s a boy or a girl. Luckily we have a few long haired men in our family and a few women with short hair. I’ve not made it a big deal.

Kids are obsessed with body parts at this age so it’s really easy to talk about it in an open way. I’ve also told him he’ll be bigger and stronger than me one day coz he’ll be a man.

CarbonNeutral · 10/07/2023 09:21

Peony654 · 09/07/2023 15:31

The irony. You’re worried about the school brain washing them so you’re going to do it instead… let them make up their own minds

Make up their own minds about whether there are only 2 sexes or not? Do they get to make up their own minds about whether gravity exists or whether the earth is flat as well? Some things are just facts you loon.

Embarra55ed · 10/07/2023 09:19

Thank you so much @LonginesPrime - a really helpful post. I think you’re right that the starting point is to make sure I’m across both sides of the argument.

OP posts:
LonginesPrime · 10/07/2023 08:41

I think at that age, the key messages are the same as ever around sexist stereotypes, there are no such thing as boys' toys and girls' toys, they're just toys and you play with the trucks or the kitchen if you want (and challenging any ideas to the contrary they get from school).

On gender identity ideology, I would explain it in exactly the same way you might explains Christians or Muslims to a child if you're not one - some people believe x, and they're perfectly entitled to do so, so we respect them in their beliefs. But obviously that doesn't mean you shouldn't believe your own eyes or trust your own instincts, and if a male-looking or sounding person is trying to follow a girl into the ladies' loos at the playground, then come and tell me, don't go in there. That kind of thing.

I don't think I would bother with buying specific children's books for them, as it needs to be more of an ongoing situation throughout their childhood as part of just learning about the world, keeping safe, navigating social situations, etc. It's probably more important that you buy books for yourself on the topic (Stock, Joyce, etc) if you haven't already, so that you're clear on what's what and the arguments on both sides, as you don't want to be blindsided if a teacher suggests your kid is trans or when you need to speak out quickly to challenge something in the moment.

I find that once I feel clear and informed and have drawn my own conclusions on a topic my DC might encounter (e.g. online freedom vs safety, media literacy, etc (my DC are older)), and I know enough of the risks and benefits and the various arguments, I'm much more confident in navigating the unexpected situations when they arise, which is the important bit. Obviously it's fine to admit to your DC that you don't know something and need to look it up, but I think on gender identity ideology especially, the idea and purported freedom it promises children is so enticing that you need to be ready with what you think, there and then, as it's simply such an appealing concept to children and it can take hold really quickly.

Obviously, you would teach them about their bodies and growing up anyway, so it's more a case of checking that the growing up books you choose to explain sex differences (and fiction more generally) aren't full of woo.

The other thing I would say is that the more I know about how gender identity ideologues think about gender and sex and about the language they're using (which is constantly evolving), the easier it is for me to spot when my DC have been consuming content around those ideas, so it's a handy early warning sign. It's similar to how, as your DC get older, you'll start to pick up when they've been exposed to Andrew Tate-style content from the language they throw around in random conversations at home. So just understanding what they might be exposed to is really helpful in recognising it in its more subtle forms and addressing it as it arises.

DontGetEvenGetEverything · 10/07/2023 08:40

@Slothtoes "It’s also part of safeguarding to tell your kids that if someone makes them feel physically threatened or uncomfortable, or is trying to put them in a situation they don’t want, then it’s absolutely fine to be rude. #BeKind must come with heavy caveats, otherwise it’s a pretty dangerous message"

Gosh that's a really important point.

Thanks

Fillyourshoes · 10/07/2023 07:44

Thatgirl1981 · 10/07/2023 06:19

Problem is we don’t what school are and are not doing until you ask

my friend thought her school was amazing she asked to see the RSE they were giving out house points in exchange for pledging allegiance to the pride flag 🤷🏿‍♂️

That is a poor school then

a good one, which is like the one I described, actually invited parents in to discuss how they would be addressing these current issues dominating social discourse

Thatgirl1981 · 10/07/2023 06:19

Fillyourshoes · 09/07/2023 15:29

Poor school if you think they’re going to brain wash them OP

mine is brilliant. Balanced open minded and keen to encourage debate and discourse.

Problem is we don’t what school are and are not doing until you ask

my friend thought her school was amazing she asked to see the RSE they were giving out house points in exchange for pledging allegiance to the pride flag 🤷🏿‍♂️

Thatgirl1981 · 10/07/2023 06:16

Told my kids you can’t change sec we looked at you tube videos of men in cultures that were skirts

my 8 year old would give any trans activist a run for their money

I have to drumb this into them
my middle one is learning disabled at at SN sxhool so would be very receptive to this if told by a teacher

I have made sure I seen all the RSE curriculum on both schools I also made sure that people conflate gender and sex

we have talked about of somone what’s you to call then she her and they are a man and also what if they say your hurting their feels

her answer was pretty good to be fair she said I tell them their hurting mine by telling lies 😊

It’s a shame really but it needs to be done imagine if them girls hadn’t been prepared my their mother 2 girls would believe you can be. A cat

Embarra55ed · 10/07/2023 00:28

Notamum12345577 · 10/07/2023 00:03

I’ve never seen a Transgender person say they can change their sex. They say they can change their gender.

Lucky you

OP posts:
Notamum12345577 · 10/07/2023 00:03

Embarra55ed · 09/07/2023 16:38

Well quite, they can decide they want to present as the other gender in terms of clothes or whatever, but I want to make sure they understand that they can’t change sex. And that if my son wants to wear a dress it doesn’t make him female.

I’ve never seen a Transgender person say they can change their sex. They say they can change their gender.

Slothtoes · 09/07/2023 22:47

It’s about parents being proactively upfront with their kids at home that you can wear what you want. Or call yourself what you want. But you can’t change sex.

And then also about being upfront with school asking how they teach SRE and what the curriculum contains and not being shy to challenge it. See Transgender Trend and Safe Schools Alliance for tips.

It’s also part of safeguarding to tell your kids that if someone makes them feel physically threatened or uncomfortable, or is trying to put them in a situation they don’t want, then it’s absolutely fine to be rude. #BeKind must come with heavy caveats, otherwise it’s a pretty dangerous message

JaninaDuszejko · 09/07/2023 20:25

I think it's really hard. My DDs are teenagers, one of them has several (female) friends who use male names and pronouns with their friends (school thankfully is sensible and uses the sex specific pronouns as used by their families and have not made toilets mixed sex). Friendsof ours have an older teenage son who has come out as a transgirl and now uses a female name.

I did everything people are recommending on here and, to be fair, the DDs do talk to me about it, understands I have a different viewpoint from them about gender but do not hate their friends who identify as boys. I have made it clear that mums are concerned about teenagers permanently damaging their bodies and I have been quite explicit about the physical impact of binders, double masectomies and chemically induced early menopause. I use preferred names but generally avoid pronouns. We agree about female only spaces and the requirement for a 'third space'. I think the most important thing is to keep a dialogue open, but to use biological language and be explicit about the impact of letting men into female spaces.

Sapphire387 · 09/07/2023 20:14

We had a school zoom recently about RSHE for our Y4 and Y5 daughters. I asked about gender identity stuff and was told it wasn't part of the national curriculum and therefore wouldn't be covered... at all. Great relief tbh.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/07/2023 18:44

Embarra55ed · 09/07/2023 17:59

Thanks for the helpful advice.

Re the school, DC1 is only in reception. It is a great school in all other respects but they have the stonewall logo on their website - does anyone know what this means?

If they've a Stonewall logo then they're likely a Stonewall champion. Here's Transgender Trend's analysis of how schools could be opening themselves up to reputational damage and legal challenge if they waste school funds on Stonewall:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-champion/

Is your school a Stonewall School Champion? - Transgender Trend

A Stonewall School Champion school is taking the risk of laying itself open to legal action and judicial review. Schools should take note.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-champion

Embarra55ed · 09/07/2023 18:29

Oh and @TheSunnySide well done to you and your son. That’s exactly what I’d like to achieve.

OP posts:
Embarra55ed · 09/07/2023 17:59

Thanks for the helpful advice.

Re the school, DC1 is only in reception. It is a great school in all other respects but they have the stonewall logo on their website - does anyone know what this means?

OP posts:
WomenShouldStillWinWomensSports · 09/07/2023 17:33

just open and frank discussions
and pick the right school

The trouble is most schools don't advertise on their school website that they're big into indoctrinating children into life-threatening toxic misinformation.
I mean you can spot some of them during pride month but even that's hit and miss as a measuring stick.
OP I've got children a bit younger than yours and this is a topic I'm giving thought to, too, although I don't have any real answers, yet. Following with interest.

WarOnWoman · 09/07/2023 17:27

@Embarra55ed Some very good advice here.

As far as school is concerned, engage with them. Look at their policies - do they say sex or do they say gender when they mean sex? Do they list the protected characteristics accurately? What is their RSE policy like? Ask to see the RSE curriculum. Push back, if you have to. Be that parent.

TheSunnySide · 09/07/2023 17:21

Be factual.

‘people can’t change sex’, ‘no human has ever changed sex’, ‘even though some people think they are the opposite sex, they are still always going to be the sex they were born’. Teach them how to recognise the difference between men and women, the physical obvious differences. Point out that in general men are much taller, have bigger hands and feet, lose their hair and have very different faces to females. Be explicit about this and caveat it with ‘there’s never any reason to be rude’ but let them trust what their own eyes are seeing. Tell them that at some point they are going to hear a whole load of weird stuff about clownfish and brains but that none of it is real. Tell them that boys can wear tutus and have long hair but it doesn’t mean they are not boys. Teach them about why women need to have spaces where there are no men. If you do the ground-work now then it pays off. My son was 7 when I realised all this shit was going on, he’s 12 now and can hold his own when confronted by gender woo. I am really proud of him.

RealityFan · 09/07/2023 17:14

Peony654 · 09/07/2023 15:31

The irony. You’re worried about the school brain washing them so you’re going to do it instead… let them make up their own minds

School tells child that the world is flat, and there are fairies and elves at the bottom of the garden.

Parent tells child that is nonsense.

Parent accused of brainwashing.

Right...

Embarra55ed · 09/07/2023 17:07

Yes @MavisMcMinty I hope so too, but don’t want to leave it to chance.

OP posts:
MavisMcMinty · 09/07/2023 16:43

I wonder if it’s too much to hope that gender nonsense stops being taken so seriously by schools in the near future? That’s not to say your children shouldn’t have the FACTS of life explained to them anyway, @Embarra55ed .