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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What the gender critical movement is trying to achieve

110 replies

NotTerfNorCis · 08/07/2023 11:30

Someone on Twitter has asked what the 'end goal' of the gender critical movement is.

Mumsnet is a better forum for discussing it (you can write as much as you want, and abuse isn't allowed) so I'm setting up this thread.

Personally I'd say the goals were broadly:

  1. Transsexuals who are cognitively mature and persistent in their belief deserve to be treated with tolerance and kindness. They shouldn't suffer discrimination in jobs or housing. They shouldn't suffer abuse because of their transsexual status. The NHS should support them. People should respect their chosen name and pronouns, unless there's a very good reason not to.

  2. It should always be possible to acknowledge a person's biological sex. That is what makes someone a woman or a man. For example, in media reporting of a sexual crime, or referring to a sex offender, the person's biological sex must be acknowledged. No rape victims should be forced to call a male attacker 'she'.

  3. Where necessary, biological sex will be taken into account, and women's rights will be based on sex rather than gender identity. For example, sports should be separated into male (or open) and female, not 'male-identified' and 'female-identified'. Same-sex attraction should be respected. If need be, males should be kept out of female spaces.

  4. Biological sex should also be taken into account in larger studies and surveys, like the census. Otherwise the data is misleading.

  5. The spread of gender ideology needs to stop. Kids shouldn't be taught that 'woman' is defined by stereotypes, and if they don't feel comfortable with the social stereotypes associated with their sex, they must be the opposite sex (or 'non-binary', 'gender fluid' etc). In other words, as a society we need to stop elevating 'gender'.

  6. Transitioners shouldn't be accepted without question, especially young people. Otherwise we end up with tragic cases like Milo: The prescription of puberty blockers should be reviewed. Clinics should carry out careful checks to make sure that the person's trans status isn't a manifestation of something else, like a repressed sexual orientation, or reaction to abuse.

  7. Families affected by a member transitioning should be given any support they need, rather than being dismissed. That includes if they have a negative reaction to the transition.

  8. The sense of being in the wrong body is an agonising mental health condition, as transsexuals like Buck Angel acknowledge: https://twitter.com/BuckAngel/status/1676398204412387328 There should be research to find out if the condition can be alleviated from a mental health perspective, without needing surgery.

  9. (Ideally) any awards given to males competing in female categories should be retrospectively reviewed.

  10. It should be valid to say that transwomen are not a subset of women and transmen are not a subset of men, without being discriminated against or abused. Gender critical beliefs (which are actually pretty mainstream) should be respected.

In short: genuine transsexuals should be respected, but sex is the ultimate marker of whether someone is a man or a woman and must be taken into account. Elevating gender stereotypes is anti-feminist. Genderism is a fad that kids need protecting from.

Milo - detransitioning

Very sad to listen to Milo share what happened during transitioning and now de-transitioning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU-B_B_V9Is

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NotTerfNorCis · 08/07/2023 12:12

terryleather · 08/07/2023 12:05

Speaking for myself, top of the list would be

  • Repeal of the GRA
  • No males no matter how they identify, no matter how long they've identified that way, no mater how nice they are, no matter how much you like them, in women's sex segregated spaces/places/hospitals/prisons/sports etc.
  • No medical interventions/affirming interventions on children and young people - there's no such thing as a "trans child"
  • Gender Identity to be regarded as a belief and not as truth, and treated as such

Good one. I hadn't thought about the GRA. https://fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/gra-reform/

Gender Recognition Act (GRA) reform | Fair Play For Women

Gender Recognition Act (GRA) reform. The fight for women's rights is not over. Why is GRA reform bad for women and why should you care?

https://fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/gra-reform

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PriOn1 · 08/07/2023 12:11

peekohome · 08/07/2023 11:50

@NotTerfNorCis Your post is trans-centric. "Trans .. deserve" "women .. where possible.." etc. You begin and end talking about trans rights.
I'm not buying this.

I thought the same. Women’s rights are first and central for me. I’m not suggesting that those who’ve undergone medical transition should be treated badly, but their rights are theirs to fight for.

So my central push would be for recognition that sex is the defining feature when it comes to segregated spaces. Transactivism is pushing for gender identity to replace sex and it isn’t possible to have a mixture of both. As soon as any male is permitted, it is by definition no longer sex-segregated.

I would also very much support an end to any kind of transitioning of children and a return to a very conservative, do-no-harm, fully evidence-based approach to transitioning at any age, but though important, that is secondary to maintaining women’s rights.

NotTerfNorCis · 08/07/2023 12:09

finewelshcheese · 08/07/2023 11:59

Who decides whether someone is a "genuine transsexual" ?

Someone who is willing to go through sexual reassignment surgery and whose feeling of being a member of the opposite sex is so strong, they want to live their lives according to the social stereotypes around that sex (aka 'gender').

Don't get me wrong - I don't think these people actually change sex. But in a compassionate society you have to be a bit flexible. It's kind to go along with their identity to a point. The moment a transwoman wants to compete in women's sports, or to be sent a women's prison though... that's where the line is drawn.

Also, of course we shouldn't be telling kids that gender is just an identity that's assigned at birth. Feminists should be challenging gender.

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terryleather · 08/07/2023 12:05

Speaking for myself, top of the list would be

  • Repeal of the GRA
  • No males no matter how they identify, no matter how long they've identified that way, no mater how nice they are, no matter how much you like them, in women's sex segregated spaces/places/hospitals/prisons/sports etc.
  • No medical interventions/affirming interventions on children and young people - there's no such thing as a "trans child"
  • Gender Identity to be regarded as a belief and not as truth, and treated as such
NotTerfNorCis · 08/07/2023 12:04

peekohome · 08/07/2023 11:50

@NotTerfNorCis Your post is trans-centric. "Trans .. deserve" "women .. where possible.." etc. You begin and end talking about trans rights.
I'm not buying this.

I'm saying that if someone has an incurable condition where they believe they're in the wrong body, they deserve health treatment and compassion just like anyone else. BUT the fundamental thing is that female is a sex, and 'woman' is not a social role that can be meaningfully separated from sex. TWANW. The 'end goal' is that society acknowledges material reality.

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BallantyneValentine · 08/07/2023 12:00

Quite simply there needs to formally be two completely separate but recognised categories for sex and the belief in gender identity (similar to religious belief). Personally I don’t believe at all I’m an inbuilt gender identity.

Protections need to be given to women on the basis of sex so single sex spaces, protections for pregnancy etc, and for trans people they should not be prejudiced against on the basis of their gender identity.

In the same way that religious beliefs don’t get to override sex as a category - so religions that have inbuilt misogynistic cultural practices and limitations on women or same sex relationships with their beliefs don’t get to override the sex category or the protection for same sex attraction , gender identity beliefs don’t get to override the protections for sex either.

That is it.

Tallisker · 08/07/2023 12:00

I'd say wear what you like, love who you love, call yourself whatever you like, but humans can't change sex and putting on lippy or saying words does not entitle you to access provision set up for the sex you are not.

Simple really. Present how you like but when sex matters, accept it.

finewelshcheese · 08/07/2023 11:59

Who decides whether someone is a "genuine transsexual" ?

peekohome · 08/07/2023 11:50

@NotTerfNorCis Your post is trans-centric. "Trans .. deserve" "women .. where possible.." etc. You begin and end talking about trans rights.
I'm not buying this.

crunchermuncher · 08/07/2023 11:36

Isn't it utterly insane that these things are even controversial?

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