Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What the gender critical movement is trying to achieve

110 replies

NotTerfNorCis · 08/07/2023 11:30

Someone on Twitter has asked what the 'end goal' of the gender critical movement is.

Mumsnet is a better forum for discussing it (you can write as much as you want, and abuse isn't allowed) so I'm setting up this thread.

Personally I'd say the goals were broadly:

  1. Transsexuals who are cognitively mature and persistent in their belief deserve to be treated with tolerance and kindness. They shouldn't suffer discrimination in jobs or housing. They shouldn't suffer abuse because of their transsexual status. The NHS should support them. People should respect their chosen name and pronouns, unless there's a very good reason not to.

  2. It should always be possible to acknowledge a person's biological sex. That is what makes someone a woman or a man. For example, in media reporting of a sexual crime, or referring to a sex offender, the person's biological sex must be acknowledged. No rape victims should be forced to call a male attacker 'she'.

  3. Where necessary, biological sex will be taken into account, and women's rights will be based on sex rather than gender identity. For example, sports should be separated into male (or open) and female, not 'male-identified' and 'female-identified'. Same-sex attraction should be respected. If need be, males should be kept out of female spaces.

  4. Biological sex should also be taken into account in larger studies and surveys, like the census. Otherwise the data is misleading.

  5. The spread of gender ideology needs to stop. Kids shouldn't be taught that 'woman' is defined by stereotypes, and if they don't feel comfortable with the social stereotypes associated with their sex, they must be the opposite sex (or 'non-binary', 'gender fluid' etc). In other words, as a society we need to stop elevating 'gender'.

  6. Transitioners shouldn't be accepted without question, especially young people. Otherwise we end up with tragic cases like Milo: The prescription of puberty blockers should be reviewed. Clinics should carry out careful checks to make sure that the person's trans status isn't a manifestation of something else, like a repressed sexual orientation, or reaction to abuse.

  7. Families affected by a member transitioning should be given any support they need, rather than being dismissed. That includes if they have a negative reaction to the transition.

  8. The sense of being in the wrong body is an agonising mental health condition, as transsexuals like Buck Angel acknowledge: https://twitter.com/BuckAngel/status/1676398204412387328 There should be research to find out if the condition can be alleviated from a mental health perspective, without needing surgery.

  9. (Ideally) any awards given to males competing in female categories should be retrospectively reviewed.

  10. It should be valid to say that transwomen are not a subset of women and transmen are not a subset of men, without being discriminated against or abused. Gender critical beliefs (which are actually pretty mainstream) should be respected.

In short: genuine transsexuals should be respected, but sex is the ultimate marker of whether someone is a man or a woman and must be taken into account. Elevating gender stereotypes is anti-feminist. Genderism is a fad that kids need protecting from.

Milo - detransitioning

Very sad to listen to Milo share what happened during transitioning and now de-transitioning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU-B_B_V9Is

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 08/07/2023 13:30

And this

I don’t care about ‘genuine feelings’ just biological reality.

What the gender critical movement is trying to achieve
What the gender critical movement is trying to achieve
Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 08/07/2023 13:28

Less of this

and this

and this

What the gender critical movement is trying to achieve
NotTerfNorCis · 08/07/2023 13:23

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 08/07/2023 13:03

Trans rights are human rights - the rights to housing, safety, food, clean water. I completely go along with that but to me gender critical is nothing to do with trans it's about breaking down the stereotypes that still hold women back and alongside that women need single sex spaces for reasons of safety, dignity and comfort due to their sex. No one can change sex its not physically possible.

I suppose gender critical does make a statement on what trans is, though, and what kind of role trans people have in society. Personally I see that as being tolerant, without having to accept that gender trumps sex.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 08/07/2023 13:21

And adults should stop encouraging children to believe they have a 'gender identity' which leads them to a medicalised path resulting in sterilisation and impaired sexual function.

OldCrone · 08/07/2023 13:20

EmpressaurusOfCats · 08/07/2023 13:00

There’s nothing progressive about gender. It’s all about old fashioned misogynist stereotypes & a truly progressive society would be trying to get rid of it, so that woman / female and man / male just mean sex.

I agree with this.

For me, being gender critical means being critical of the concept of gender being applied to people - i.e. critical of gender stereotyping and gendered expectations. People should be able to live their lives as they want in terms of appearance and interests, but nobody should be thinking that they are showing evidence of being like the opposite sex because of their preferences.

What I would like to achieve is to abolish gender altogether in this context. (Obviously gender will still exist as a linguistic term.)

AlisonDonut · 08/07/2023 13:18

Repeal of the GRA
Jail those who gave people untested medications or removed body parts under the guise of being 'non-conforming'
Sack all the gender wibblers in companies and education and government and stop spending money on all this shite.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/07/2023 13:17

I just want it all to go away so we can get back to where we were and campaign for issues like VAWG, ending sex-based discrimination and so on.

Thatgirl1981 · 08/07/2023 13:13

That woke people Lee their batshit ideology to themselves

Screamingabdabz · 08/07/2023 13:08

Sex is the only relevant identifier of what human beings should be categorised as in terms of male and female status and facilities.

official documents like birth certificates and passports should not be altered - it’s falsifying and fraudulent.

And I don’t want to be forced to used pronouns because ‘it’s kind’ - fuck that.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 08/07/2023 13:03

Trans rights are human rights - the rights to housing, safety, food, clean water. I completely go along with that but to me gender critical is nothing to do with trans it's about breaking down the stereotypes that still hold women back and alongside that women need single sex spaces for reasons of safety, dignity and comfort due to their sex. No one can change sex its not physically possible.

crunchermuncher · 08/07/2023 13:00

Freedom of speech - people not being hounded out of their jobs, losing their bank accounts etc just for speaking the truth - that humans can't change sex and sometimes, that matters.

literalviolence · 08/07/2023 13:00

Woman2023 · 08/07/2023 12:34

"NotTerfNorCis
Someone who is willing to go through sexual reassignment surgery and whose feeling of being a member of the opposite sex is so strong, they want to live their lives according to the social stereotypes around that sex (aka 'gender')"
^
I think we need to get away from the idea of true trans. Plenty of detransitioners only realised what a mistake it was after surgery.

Surgery should only be done after there's good protocols set up with evidence of success. Removing healthy body parts to fix some people based on their self-reported feelings is not ethical and should be made much more difficult.^

I completely agree. I also do not support gender based pronouns because it fudges the reality and is a gateway to other expectations which should never be fulfilled. A man is always a man. There is no way I can' accept being called 'she' if we also accept a man being called she. What's the function of the 'she' pronoun in that case? I think we need a true gender-neutral pronoun which should be adopted for all over time.

EmpressaurusOfCats · 08/07/2023 13:00

There’s nothing progressive about gender. It’s all about old fashioned misogynist stereotypes & a truly progressive society would be trying to get rid of it, so that woman / female and man / male just mean sex.

RebelliousCow · 08/07/2023 12:59

I think a large part of the cntemporary problem is the way that feelings go bodily dysphoria and individual psychological and emotional struggle have been co-opted by post modernistic theories and conceptions of the self and society.

crunchermuncher · 08/07/2023 12:59

Going back to sex testing for sport, as suggested by the indomitable olympian Sharron Davies.

If you think a cheek swab is intrusive, how will you cope with official's watching you wee for your dope test?

Kilopascal · 08/07/2023 12:57

Honestly, I’ll just go for ‘not forcing me to lie’.

Male people stay male. Female people stay female. Those who can recognise sex shouldn’t be penalized, criticized or deprived of facilities.

RebelliousCow · 08/07/2023 12:54

finewelshcheese · 08/07/2023 11:59

Who decides whether someone is a "genuine transsexual" ?

Quite!

It now seems to mean someone who has "taken the trouble" to go through with full surgical transition; or that is the popular public perception. Most people are still thinking back to those 1970s TV documentaries about the early 'sex change' operations that were common at the time, I imagine.

The fundamental issue , though, is that people just unquestionably go along with the idea that there is a such a thing as 'being trans'. That some people just are. There is nothing they can do about it. They didn't choose it.Whereas what is really going on is psychological in nature. Either an inability to come to terms with one's homosexuality, or else with the driving force that is AGP.

There is a great documentary on Netflix called 'Regretters' about two such transsexuals who transitioned a long time ago; one of whom was amongst the first men to undergo such surgery in the early 1960s - at a time when being gay was still illegal. ( well worth a watch)Both men have since detransitioned, even going so far as having surgery to replace the lost penis. They talk through their long history and process with each other, reflecting on how they now know and understand that they are not really women at all.

Woman2023 · 08/07/2023 12:34

"NotTerfNorCis
Someone who is willing to go through sexual reassignment surgery and whose feeling of being a member of the opposite sex is so strong, they want to live their lives according to the social stereotypes around that sex (aka 'gender')"
^
I think we need to get away from the idea of true trans. Plenty of detransitioners only realised what a mistake it was after surgery.

Surgery should only be done after there's good protocols set up with evidence of success. Removing healthy body parts to fix some people based on their self-reported feelings is not ethical and should be made much more difficult.^

Xoxoxoxoxoxox · 08/07/2023 12:23
  • Sex based rights reinstated in law including sex based sports/ refuges / prisons etc.
  • puberty blockers banned and talk based therapies developed for gender dysphoria.
  • More academic freedom for Universities to allow gender critical speech.
  • Trans propaganda out of the school curriculum
  • Sex based hospital wards & care services.
  • More balanced media reporting on trans issues, less activist reporting.
NotTerfNorCis · 08/07/2023 12:21

Backstreets · 08/07/2023 12:16

What I would absolutely love to see as well as everything already mentioned is the reintroduction of women’s rights and children’s safeguarding as priority liberal and progressive values. Feel like as soon as someone found a way to give men our rights we fell right down on the rankings like a novelty Christmas hit plummeting the charts in January.

Yes that's another thing. This idea that 'feminism must be trans-inclusive or it isn't feminism' has to stop. Feminism is about females, not males who 'identify' as female, whatever that even means. Feminism and genderism should be seen as separate, contradictory ideologies. And in general, males (woman-identified or not) should stop speaking over feminists.

OP posts:
GrumpyPanda · 08/07/2023 12:21

NotTerfNorCis · 08/07/2023 12:09

Someone who is willing to go through sexual reassignment surgery and whose feeling of being a member of the opposite sex is so strong, they want to live their lives according to the social stereotypes around that sex (aka 'gender').

Don't get me wrong - I don't think these people actually change sex. But in a compassionate society you have to be a bit flexible. It's kind to go along with their identity to a point. The moment a transwoman wants to compete in women's sports, or to be sent a women's prison though... that's where the line is drawn.

Also, of course we shouldn't be telling kids that gender is just an identity that's assigned at birth. Feminists should be challenging gender.

I get what you're saying, but it may be difficult to put the genie back in the bottle. From the perspective of somebody living in Germany - we had one of the earliest laws for gender recognition (1982), and back then it actually tied recognition of gender change to reassignment surgery, and given this was long before same-sex marriage, also automatic dissolution of the individual's marriage. The Constitional Court has since invalidated both these provisions on human rights grounds. Fair enough - but it does mean that really there's no longer a basis to have a GRA at all. ( Further complicated by the fact that the German language does not have a sex-gender distinction, so the SelfIS law being proposed now really would have the effect of abolishing sex as a legal category altogether.)

Backstreets · 08/07/2023 12:16

What I would absolutely love to see as well as everything already mentioned is the reintroduction of women’s rights and children’s safeguarding as priority liberal and progressive values. Feel like as soon as someone found a way to give men our rights we fell right down on the rankings like a novelty Christmas hit plummeting the charts in January.

PriOn1 · 08/07/2023 12:16

Yes, I agree about the GRA and would add its repeal to my list. It should not be possible to legally change sex unless an error has been made or there is a DSD that means there has to be some kind of discretionary choice based on the life experience and the wishes of that person. Even then, sports should not be based on legal sex if there is any male advantage.

Boomboom22 · 08/07/2023 12:13

Hmm I think tw shouldn't be gone along with. Men wearing what they like and make up heels whatever but not agreeing they are a w or a tw, just a man.

QueenHippolyta · 08/07/2023 12:12

Absolutely!
No experimental drugs and surgeries on minors or adults with complex mental problems.

No men in women- only spaces, sports, awards.

The legal definition of woman = adult human female

Sex recorded in official records not gender

I've met quite a number of transwomen (men) as a Lesbian; Ladies stop with the pity for a bunch of male narcissists.

Women rights come first!

Swipe left for the next trending thread