Radio 4. Right now. Is freaking me out.

Not sure there is a way everyone gets what they want

Why is it the responsibility of women to move over just because a male doesn't want to share with other men? Why shouldn't the male be told that no, on this occasion, women come first?

I just listened to this and found it very shallow.

Freddy McConnell went to court in an attempt to be named as father rather than mother on the older child's birth certificate. Freddy lost of course because the law is very clear on this even within the GRA - the woman who gives birth to you is your mother, regardless of how she identifies and even if she has a GRC. She is not your father.

Freddy refused to register the child's birth because of this court decision. At the time of Freddy's second pregnancy the older child (aged almost 4) still had not been registered. The courts allowed some kind of special arrangement for the child to get a passport even without a birth certificate. This was so that the child could accompany Freddy to Sweden for the second birth. In Sweden you can apparently register just as 'parent'.

I won't link directly because it'll get deleted but if you google 'Help get Freddy's baby a birth certificate' you will find the old crowdfunder page:

Due to outdated English laws, SJ (now almost four) still does not have a birth certificate. Transgender parents have no legal recognition in our country, which means that, even though Freddy is legally male "for all purposes" (GRA 2004), his only option is to register as SJ’s ‘mother’. This in turn would mean SJ going through life with an inaccurate and confusing birth certificate – listing his father (full name Alfred) as his 'mother'.

In the event, Freddy required an emergency c section and gave birth for the second time in the UK.

Does anyone know whether either of these children have a birth certificate yet?

Failing to register your child's birth because of your ideology is dodgy as fuck, whether it's because of your strange ideas about 'sovereignty' and the relevance of obscure maritime law, or because of your strange ideas about sex, gender and motherhood.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/if_a_child_has_not_been_register

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jun/23/man-refused-to-register-sons-birth-high-court

The judge in the case reported in the Guardian said, 'It is manifestly in [a child's] best interest for his birth to be registered, in order that he may be recognised as a citizen and entitled to the benefits of such citizenship.'

Children who are not registered are at risk because legally they don't exist so they don't show up on anyone's radar.

Freddy's two will be fine because Freddy loves the limelight so everyone knows of these two children's existence but what kind of example has Freddy set? Are there other mothers who have failed to register their children because they believe themselves to be fathers? Maybe really vulnerable messed up young women who might not even have publicly come out as 'trans'?

The number of unregistered births in the UK is a known unknown.

In prisons both in the U.K. and abroad, women have been forced to shower naked with men who say they are women. They have been punished for objecting on the grounds that they are men. Anyone who can handwave that away, isn't the moral person they claim to be.

I just don't think this poster knows much of what they are talking about, I don't think that necessarily means they are American.

But I don’t agree with shitting on one marginalised group or another
Why is requiring a male to change with other males "shitting on" them? What would you call forcing girls to change with males against their will? Or forcing muslims to go against their religious rules? Oh right, they don't matter to you.

Are you American? I'm afraid (or rather very glad) that not all the experts are of that opinion. In fact, in Europe medical experts in several countries have warned that puberty blockers are dangerous. They (and I) believe that children with dysphoria deserve a higher quality of care rather than being subjected to experimental treatments which we now know are harmful.

Already said that I don’t think 1 person’s wishes trumps 20 peoples. But I don’t agree with shitting on one marginalised group or another. Not sure there is a way everyone gets what they want, so again, I refer you to my suggestion that you engage with the club. I think a PP suggested you had a case under equality law. Perhaps they can help?

As for the other question, I’m afraid ‘I don’t think this is a problem’ v the advice from the American Medical Association and Am Assoc of Paediatricians doesn’t quite cut it for me. I think I’ll remain in the position of listening to the experts.

Yeah, I was mixing you up with another poster who suggested only those with nothing to say would use ad hominem attacks. Beginning to see her point. As you were, sweetcheeks.

I don’t really know what ‘right’ answer you want from me
I want to know why one person's wishes are more important than (at least( 20 people's wishes. Because it sounds like you have some pretty ingrained misogyny there.

Now someone please answer mine from earlier re AMA / AAP saying that the anti trans laws in the USA will increase depression and suicide amongst youngsters. Is that ok?
What anti trans laws are you referring to? Because if it's about restricting access to hormones and surgery, there wasn't an increase in suicide before they became commonplace so no, I don't believe it's a problem.

I wasn’t the one who started the stroppy demands for apologies, sweetheart.

It tends to be smug, privileged women who don't have the imagination to see why letting a group of males who are frequently resentful of women, a proportion of whom believe that women are merely the background to their particular sexual fetish, into situations where women are undressed and vulnerable, isn't a good thing for women and girls. And it tends to be poorer, more vulnerable women, not them, who suffer most as a result of their virtue signalling and pandering to this ideology.

The whims of one male, or a handful, should not trump the privacy, dignity and safety of many women and girls. Anyone who thinks they do, is sexist.

Cubicles do absolutely fuck all to protect the dignity of undressed women and GIRLS - children.
Women and girls have the right to be able to undress in a communal area with other women should they wish to. They also have the right to use a cubicle knowing that the person in the cubicle next door has a female body.

Transwomen are welcome to use cubicles. In the male changing area. Or mixed sex area, as the other people using that area are using it in the full knowledge there are mixed sex users around them.

I have plenty of female Muslim and Sikh friends who would categorically not be able to undress in the 'company' of people with penises. Men. Regardless of whether it was them or the penis person behind a fucking cubicle door or not. It is still not acceptable to their faith.
They need to be in a different room entirely.

The upshot potentially being that women of these faiths should forego exercise or be unable to partake in social activities completely is disgusting.

That's before we've even started on rape or sexual assault victims. But you know, given the penises are behind a cubicle door, it's all FINE. No trauma to be seen or relieved here.
Other than the obvious trauma being experienced by poor men who don't give a fuck about anyone else but themselves.

wow, you seem really angry. Maybe have a cuppa.

It’s not disagreement that’s the issue. It’s the unearned superior attitude coupled with ignorance of the background that’s the problem. As I’ve made abundantly clear. This site is full of women who have bothered to inform themselves. Chat shit, expect to get called on it.

And this is why no one wants to discuss the trans issue on Mumsnet. As soon as anyone disagrees with trans = erasing women, you become nasty. We’re back to the point we were at a few pages ago. ----

No, I wouldn’t. Nor do I want to shower with women. I don’t want to shower with anyone I don’t know. I’ve said this already.

As for not caring about women and girls - that’s not my position. I can disagree with your stance and still care. I’ve told you that I think it sounds unfair - but my solution wouldn’t be to exclude the TW, it would be to find a solution where everyone gets privacy. I can’t fix your club situation, and I don’t really know what ‘right’ answer you want from me.

Now someone please answer mine from earlier re AMA / AAP saying that the anti trans laws in the USA will increase depression and suicide amongst youngsters. Is that ok?

And another one - is it right that women who want to be sterilised young are often refused treatment because they might change their minds about having kids one day?

Also, waiting to hear what the criteria for defining womanhood are, if they aren’t biological?

Why should I apologise? You have demonstrated lamentable ignorance of the clinical controversy and weak evidence base, while hectoring everyone else. Which is absolutely mirrored in guardian discussion (or lack thereof) of these issues.
Perhaps it’s you who should apologise? Ignorant people shouldn’t lecture those who have bothered to inform themselves.

I explained my position above. Someone definitely told me off earlier for ad hominem attacks. Perhaps it wasn’t you, but I agree to engage in good faith, which I’ve been doing. If you don’t want to do that - starting with an apology for your rock / guardian reader shit - I’m happy to leave it here.

Since you mentioned trauma I’m interested in why you recognise that for a male over a female given the choice

And those who have transitioned? Are they now women?

No, of course not. What even is "transitioning"? Surgery? Hormones? Changing your "pronouns"?

You yourself said you know as a scientist that people can't change sex, so what do you think a "woman" is, if not a biological female? Why do you feel it's a name that should be given to a group of men, just because they fancy they have a "woman" essence? Where does this "woman" idea come from, if it isn't being female?

@Bingbangbongbash You didn't answer my question: Out of interest, would you be comfortable showering with a male?

The serious point being that such ignorance of what’s been going on in one indulging in such sententious finger wagging is pretty damn inexcusable.

As for the predator thing - don’t be silly. You know that you are suggesting this TW is someone to suspect.
No, I'm not actually, not in this case. I'll tell you why- up until last year this person used the male changing rooms and has said that they had encountered no problems. I don't think they're a predator at all as in this club everyone knows them. I think they have been told by people like you that it is their right to use female spaces and that what girls want is unimportant. I'm sorry but I find your attitude sickening. This is a real life situation, not a hypothetical. Why do women and girls matter so little to you? Why do you think it is more important to give someone who has lived 49 years as a man the chance to shower with girls?

It’s an echo chamber. If you walked up to 95% of the British public right now, in a town centre they would tell you men can’t give birth.

I would say only a tiny fringe of the British public truly believe that actual men give birth.