Radio 4. Right now. Is freaking me out.

Ahem Bing. What do you define as "transitioned"? You frequently repeat the word as if it is a definite thing that can be defined.

I do not believe it is a thing.

To answer the original OP - YABU for being "freaked out" at R4, as they've been peddling this and much other nonsense for a few years now.

I used to have R4 on as a constant in the background; after the past two years I've now turned it off. Which is a shame as they do still produce some 'worth listening to' stuff.

Are there lots of Republicans on this thread? I confess I skimmed the earlier posts.

I didn’t say I think the interventions should be permitted. I said that I believe the AMA / AAP when they warn that the laws will have a negative effect on the mental health & suicide rates of trans youth. I specifically said - in the very post you have quoted here - that I made absolutely no judgment on the interventions because that is beyond my expertise. I’ve now said that twice.

The basis of my belief is that I listen to medical experts more than randoms on the internet. You have not been able to share any information that counters the AMA/AAP warning on adverse mental health effects. You have talked about the interventions being controversial and not accepted practice in Europe. That is not the same thing.

And what of the laws that go further than banning puberty blockers to teens? What of the ones that make it illegal to provide transition assistance for people under 26? I asked (unanswered) what people thought of young women being denied sterilisation, in case they change their mind about having babies later. Surely refusing gender affirming treatment to someone of 25 is a similar thing.

Or the ones that make it illegal for teachers to use preferred pronouns without parental consent? Can’t you appreciate that these overreach and create a culture of transphobia that cannot be helpful for kids struggling with these issues. Whatever your views on trans - mental illness or social contagion or the latest attempt by the patriarchy to erase women - surely you can see that removing the agency of those at the heart of it is not the way to deal with it.

And on a more political note, the Republicans really don’t have a great track record when it comes to other people’s bodies.

As far as I am concerned any male who knowingly enters a female space, especially one where women will be in various states of undress, is a predator. And before anyone mentions cleaners/repairmen, signs are displayed warning women and those men check the area is clear before entering.

But you have no basis for that belief. You choose to accept one account of the position, while ignoring the debate and complexity, and the fact that there is no evidence base to support the interventions you think should be permitted.
as I said, you can’t expect anyone to take that seriously. You are just cherry picking to suit your bias. There is no evidence for the position you support.

I asked this earlier: What do you define as "transitioned"?

and how vile it is to refer to TW as males
Why? It's factual and unambiguous. By the way, none of the TW I know deny being male. I'll let them know you think they're vile. Or rather I won't because I believe in treating others with respect.

Of course I agree that these people need much better mental health care. It isn't kind to tell them that everyone will accept them as the opposite sex, because it's not true. A little more truth, and fewer lies would go a long way to healthier attitudes on this issue.

There is very little evidence for the claim that restricting child "transitioning" will lead to more suicides. It's been demonstrated in more than one study that trans people are more likely to commit suicide after transitioning, not before.

Also, to be clear - I believe that the laws will have a deleterious effect on mental health of young trans people. I make no judgement on the interventions themselves. That is far beyond my expertise or scope. Unlike all you doctors and psychiatrists, of course.

So, to be clear, the experts aren’t in agreement, but the experts I agree with are wrong and the experts you agree with are right? Ok, cool. Makes sense.

I really fucking hope you’re right, because the thought of more people dying because of bullshit republicans controlling other people’s bodies is abhorrent.

To me, any male person in a female space is a red flag, as they don't respect boundaries.

Sexual assault and harassment, usually of women, is male pattern behaviour, not female. That's not a "dog whistle" it's just reality. That's why generally people respect that men don't use women's spaces, and why we have them in the first place.

and how vile it is to refer to TW as males

But in pp you stated people couldn’t change sex, so they must be males

oh, and how vile it is to refer to TW as males

How would you have us refer to them?

I mean, I’ve literally said that I agree with the majority decision. Why have the 20 girls wants been overruled by the one other person? I don’t fucking know. Ask your club. You know I don’t run the club, right?

I can only presume that the club has decided to segregate spaces on gender rather than sex. That’s their decision to make. A PP suggested it is illegal, so why don’t you challenge the decision?

was there a vote? Was there a clear majority for sex based segregation? I don’t know.

I’m not the president of the club, you know.

I have never suggested getting rid of single sex spaces - I have suggested that if it is an issue, a democratic process is followed to decide. If, as you believe, all women will vote to keep them separate, then happy days.

All I’ve ever said on the other side is that I personally have no issue with shared toilets and changing rooms as long as there are private cubicles.

oh, and how vile it is to refer to TW as males and suggest they want to shower with girls in a dog whistle attempt to imply deviancy.

It’s already been pointed out to you that this approach is heavily contested, and the trend of medical opinion is Europe is away from intervention.
if you aren’t going to engage with the complexities of the picture and keep on bellowing the same stuff, ignoring that “the experts” are not all of one mind, you honestly can’t expect anyone to take you seriously.

"I know they can't actually change sex, because science"

"I'm not ok with them being called males by women who don't believe in my ideology"

It's not a rational, balanced position to take.

and making dog whistle posts about them wanting to shower with girls
Dog whistle? Unlike you this actually affects my family and people I know. Damn right I'm angry.

You say you believe in the majority choosing

If the majority of women were asked, they would say no. Because in all polling, it's clear that penises are a dealbreaker, and most of these males have them.

Rylan Clark seems like a nice enough chap. I prefer him on the radio where I am not distracted by his giant plasticky looking head.

More generally, I have been slowly going off R4 since they shat on Jenni Murray.

Failing to register your child's birth because of your ideology is dodgy as fuck, whether it's because of your strange ideas about 'sovereignty' and the relevance of obscure maritime law, or because of your strange ideas about sex, gender and motherhood.

Quite.

why do you insist on deciding my position?
It's called extrapolating from the data. You say you believe in the majority choosing but no matter how many females object they can always be overruled by ONE male. Why?

why do you insist on deciding my position? That I don’t care about Muslims or girls? You are obsessed with this one aspect of the debate. Like I have said several times, I’m ok with whatever the majority want with respect to single sex / shared spaces. I didn’t change the rules in your club and I don’t much care either way. It’s not my decision, so I don’t know why you are going on and on about it at me. It’s weird. At best I’m ambivalent about shared spaces like toilets, and against any sort of communal changing / showering situation but I’m just not on board with calling TW males and men and making dog whistle posts about them wanting to shower with girls. It’s unnecessary and cruel. I also don’t understand the hysteria about penises being behind doors like some PP was on about. This doesn’t make me poorly educated or not as well informed as you, it just means I’ve evaluated what I’ve read and my lives experience and come to a different conclusion. That’s ok, you know.