Radio 4. Right now. Is freaking me out.

@TempestuousBehaviour You'd think so, wouldn't you? But sadly not!!

@Fiftyisthenewsixty anyone who insists other people get changed in front of them and throws a strop when they say ‘no thank you’ is so extremely worrying, and so far in the wrong that anyone accepting it must be frankly off their head!

Yes, just wanted to add, I agree that it's not all about safety although that's obviously important. The girls DON'T WANT individual cubicles so that they are not seen at all. They have no problem getting changed in front of each other and they like the camaraderie (which the boys still have!) The TW complained about not being part of this, ironically not understanding that it is the TW's presence which has changed the whole dynamic! The whole thing has been a big lesson on how girls are being taught they matter less. Just to reiterate: the TW can change alone or with the men without any fear or embarrassment but apparently this is not enough.

Wtf. That is shockingly disgusting, even for these type of men. That poor doctor having to deal with this fetish maniac.

Yes and it’s dignity and privacy plus the safeguarding

I don’t think the issue is just whether tw are predatory, it’s more nuanced than that.

It’s the feeling of male gaze being brought into female spaces… women are still socialised into feeling embarrassment and even shame about their bodies and bodily functions. We are taught that women should be attractive at all times to people who have a penis. It’s a very real deep feeling for many women and girls. So a tw saying their penis is different doesn’t over ride a lifetime of socialisation and cultural experience.

Also many women are uncomfortable getting changed in front of people they feel might have a sexual attraction towards them- they just want to get dressed without having to feel observed.

Interesting tweet from Helen Joyce with some examples from apparently a Facebook doctors group:

twitter.com/hjoycegender/status/1677981650905440256?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

As she says "This is where the insanity of gender ideology leads."

And that thinking leads to professional people who should know better ignoring proven effects to children and women to pander to these males. To hide behind bad faith sophistry, gotchas and semantics to justify it, as I said yesterday.

Being more understanding of a fetishist getting his kicks at the expense of a newborn, than a (undeniably troubled) woman's desire to give birth and feed an infant tells me a lot about your thinking. I am not trying to be horrible, honestly, and if feeling this way makes me transphobic that's because it also makes me a woman who understands that sex is binary. And that's transphobic, so.

This.

I find the argument that the solution is to allow children surgery, or actions without parental consent very concerning.

What is the motivation for that?

The answer isn’t let them do it as early as possible.

I’m heartbroken by the loss of Radio 4. In maternity leave 20 odd years ago I had a radio in every room tuned to it. Now I just don’t listen to it at all after I found myself constantly turning it off. The fact that Grace Lavery has been on Woman’s Hour and not Helen Joyce sums it up for me.

About 5 years ago my son came across me sorting laundry while listening to some programme about drill music and burst out laughing and asked why on earth was I listening to it. I just thought yes, why on earth am I and haven’t listened since. It’s a pity as I miss programs like the Moral Maze, A Good Read, The Life Scientific but it’s all off my radar now, replaced by YouTube and podcasts.

Another factor too was the weird patronising way in which so many R4 female presenters started to speak, peculiar intonations and breathiness and the worst, smiling as they speak - made my teeth itch.

I spoke at length to a TW who was able to induce lactation; she struck me (in my non-expert opinion) as troubled

Yes

but she saw lactation as an ultimate statement of ‘femaleness’.

That is AGP.

I understood her position more than I understand the desire for a TM to give birth and feed an infant.

Being more understanding of a fetishist getting his kicks at the expense of a newborn, than a (undeniably troubled) woman's desire to give birth and feed an infant tells me a lot about your thinking. I am not trying to be horrible, honestly, and if feeling this way makes me transphobic that's because it also makes me a woman who understands that sex is binary. And that's transphobic, so.

It's a tactic. Never answer direct questions: never offer your own data and refute and refuse all data offered by GC women: keep throwing up random questions that may or may not be related to PP's comments (keeps women busy going backwards and forwards checking what they wrote): accuse people of saying things they didn't say: play the outraged victim...

We know what we've got here, don't we? Many of us have been posting on MN for years, it's nothing we haven't seen a thousand times before.

I refer you again to my question about young women being refused sterilisation.
What's this got to do with the price of fish? 🙄

No, you haven’t. I refer you again to my question about young women being refused sterilisation.

I refer you again to my questions about the parts of the US laws that prohibit any gender affirming interventions under 26.

I refer you again to whether it is an overreach to make it illegal for school employees to use preferred pronouns without written parental consent.

You haven’t supplied me with any alternative reading or specific experts to look at - ‘just not the US model’. Yet another poster is using the fact domperidone is banned in the US as support for lactation induction being wrong. So are we ok to listen to the AMA or not? Are they only right when the agree with you?

...if men can lactate the nation's husbands are in trouble!

I spoke at length to a TW who was able to induce lactation; she struck me (in my non-expert opinion) as troubled, but she saw lactation as an ultimate statement of ‘femaleness’. I understood her position more than I understand the desire for a TM to give birth and feed an infant.

Do you understand autogynephilia and the sexual thrill that around 4% of the male population get by imitating women? I notice you are not concerned about the child on the receiving end of his needs.

Are you male, BingBB? You seem to focus on the male aspect of all this. You can't understand a TM (a woman) feeling the urge to do what her body is designed around doing but you can understand a man wanting to do something completely unnatural for his own ends — not the good of the child.

Insofar as you’ve posed coherent questions, I’ve answered them. You still won’t tell us what you think transitioning is, or what the non-biological criteria for womanhood is.
we know why you won’t answer, you know.

There is no exchange of ideas or willingness to replicate my engagement
What do you mean? Your whole argument seems to be that you believe the experts. When people have pointed out several times that the experts are not in agreement and, in fact, many experts disagree with puberty blockers, you haven't said why you don't believe them.

When you've said that tw are a vulnerable group and people have asked you why, you haven't explained why.

When we've asked for clarification on what transitioning means you have no answer but insist that it means that everyone has to defer to it.

I don't think you can accuse us of not engaging, quite the opposite. It would be nice if you could engage with us but I know you're going to say we're in "bad faith" so you can't or some such nonsense.

Make lactation isn’t easy at all - it is generally harder than non-birthing female lactation. I spoke at length to a TW who was able to induce lactation; she struck me (in my non-expert opinion) as troubled, but she saw lactation as an ultimate statement of ‘femaleness’. I understood her position more than I understand the desire for a TM to give birth and feed an infant. That said, I’ve never had the opportunity to speak to the latter, so perhaps if I did, I would be able to understand them better. I also cast no judgment on anyone wanting to do these things - I am not transphobic, I don’t think.

Quite.

Children are not competent to make decisions that have life long repercussions… that’s why we don’t let them get married or get a tattoo!

If these ‘trans’ children had been brought up to understand they can wear, play with, work at and love whoever they want the likelihood is far far fewer of them would want to transition in the first place.

The trans lobby’s obsession with gender determinism is what is making the vast majority of those children unhappy.

This is a very interesting read, including the comments and subsequent links below. Thank you for sharing.

Exactly. If it was that straightforward, why aren’t lots of dads doing it? Plenty of them already have weight related ‘man boobs’ so taking a few pills and helping out with the night feeds should be a doddle?

To look at it another way, if male mammals were capable of producing viable milk with the help of a few drugs, the global dairy industry would have been all over this a long time ago.

Another sobering article from the medical profession

https://unherd.com/2023/07/doctors-have-failed-detransitioners/

Exactly. If it was that straightforward, why aren’t lots of dads doing it? Plenty of them already have weight related ‘man boobs’ so taking a few pills and helping out with the night feeds should be a doddle?

Except that it’s not that simple. Inducing lactation in a body not designed for it (being male) who endocrine system has to be completely battered by hormone suppression and cross sex hormones is not the same as doing it in a women who has all the pre-existing capacity. A male has to continue taking all the drugs whereas a woman can take a tiny dose to kick start lactation, then ‘pump and dump’ before it goes near the baby.

In any case, this is bandied around casually like it happens all the time but I know no one in my extensive mums circle that has ever used drugs to induce lactation when they haven’t given birth. I don’t believe it is common at all especially as the main drug is banned in the US.