Radio 4. Right now. Is freaking me out.

Is it unfair that the girls are not getting to shower? No. But I don’t blame the TW
Ok, so let's say we campaign for cubicles (which the girls don't want by the way - they want the same camaraderie in the changing rooms that the men get but hey ho, who cares what girls want?) what should we actually do? Allow the TW to use the female changing rooms and disadvantage all the females or let them have their changing room back? If the former, please explain why one person's wants trump what ALL the women and girls want.

This can only be posted on almost total ignorance of the controversy within the medical profession as to the appropriate treatment of minors claiming gender distress, the clear co-morbidity within this population with other problems (notably ASD, worry about sexuality, and childhood trauma) and the emerging trend, in Europe at least, away from intervention, recognising the lack of evidence base to support it.
I can’t take it seriously, I’m sorry.

Great so you agree women get a say.

If just two women say they do not want it and one man says they do, he’s outnumbered.

On that basis I think we can head off any males in sports and spaces.

If you’re relying on a GE overriding that I doubt things will improve. Women will still say no and pressure will grow in other ways.

But that doesn’t mean all transwomen are rapists, does it?

No one here has said that.

We're saying that there's more than enough evidence to indicate that transwomen aren't all nice and that it's impossible for women to tell the decent TWs from the ones who might assault them, so it's perfectly reasonable and rational to insist that women-only space should apply to biological women only. And that, as for the last few hundred years, men in women's women-only spaces are treated as transgressors.

I think it’s unfair to insist people change communally and think the ire and campaigning should be to get that changed, not single out another user. Is it unfair that the girls are not getting to shower? No. But I don’t blame the TW

Because I trust the medical professionals to do what is in the best interests of the person they are treated. It is not for me, a lay person, to interfere.

A pp said ‘I don’t need to be a vet to know what a dog is’. No, you don’t. But I wouldn’t accept your advice on how to treat its broken leg.

Well of course they should. So how does that work in your world? Every single instance is voted on by all the users? Or do we use the traditional democratic system where we vote for a manifesto to be enacted by elected representatives? In which case, I guess we will see what happens in the GE next year.

When you talk about not defining a person’s trauma do you mean that for women too, who ask for single sex spaces to be preserved?

I think I’ve been pretty clear that each person should be judged according to a variety of factors. I don’t think someone should be moved from a male prison to a female one just because they decide one day to live as a woman. I also don’t think they should be forced to remain in a male wing forever - they should be supported as appropriate to transition if that’s their wish, and all necessary steps should be taken to protect them from other inmates, and vice versa.

If that’s transphobic, well I’m sorry. I don’t think I’m transphobic but it’s also not for me to decide as I’m not trans. I wouldn’t accept someone telling me what racism is, so I don’t want to define someone else’s trauma.

A PP told us about her friend who transitioned and was lovely - it’s been dismissed as one person so just anecdotal. What do you think about the case of the Scottish arsehole being put in a female jail being used as an example why no transgender women should be put in women’s prisons? Is one ‘good trans’ anecdotal and one ‘bad trans’ evidence?
I think you are referring to what I wrote although I'm not sure as you seem to have completely misunderstood 🤔. My point was no, we should not rely anecdotal evidence on either side we should rely on evidence. Luckily we have plenty of it and it shows that while many males (whatever their gender identity) are nice, enough of them (whatever their gender identity) are a threat to women to make it necessary to separate spaces where women are more vulnerable (prisons, hospitals, changing rooms etc) by SEX.

It’s absolutely right to ban transgender surgeries for minors. The US medical opinion is out of step with the UK, Sweden, Finland, France and other countries which are recognising that the evidence base to support such drastic, life changing, irreversible interventions is simply not there.
It’s a pity it’s necessary, but if the greedy US doctors won’t self-regulate, there is no other option.

These are all such good points and I really can’t believe that the wants of the trans person are put above the safety of babies.

I’m not down with communal changing rooms at all
But that's not going to happen is it? In the meantime, where do we change? In my daughter's athletics club a 50 year old TW has decided to change in the communal female changing room. There are no cubicles, not even in the showers. The girls/women are forgoing the showers and changing in their cars or going straight home. TW has complained! Do you honestly think this is fair?

Just looking at these responses on what’s in or out if anyone recognises you cannot change sex, which most do on this thread, then it’s arguments around whether to make a prison or changing room etc mixed sex or not

Do women get a say on whether they’d like single sex provision to stop?

prisons - case by case basis
Again, sounds reasonable but anyone who claims to be a woman is evaluated as a woman. The result is that they are immediately judged to be low risk because women are low risk. Are you suggesting that trans women should be assessed according to their sex? I'm afraid that's transphobic.

But that doesn’t mean all transwomen are rapists, does it?

I can also think of many reasons that transgender people are represented more highly in prisons. I think fetish / sexual deviancy is one, but I also think socioeconomic factors and societal issues play a big part. In the US, for example, trans women are much more likely to end up falling into prostitution and drug use because they are shunned by conservative society and find it hard to work outside of sex work. Add to that the difficulty of getting gender affirming surgery, and it’s not a surprise to me at all.

If society makes it hard for you to live as a part of it, I understand why they end up on the fringes.

So I guess right now, I’m leaning towards no, with an open mind regarding those athletes who transitioned before going through male puberty.
That's the sort of thing that sounds reasonable...until you realise it means imposing life changing "treatments" on children. Why do you think that's acceptable?

What do you think about the case of the Scottish arsehole being put in a female jail being used as an example why no transgender women should be put in women’s prisons? Is one ‘good trans’ anecdotal and one ‘bad trans’ evidence?

Where shall we start? 200+ trans-identified men in prisons at any one time in recent years. The numbers fluctuate. Where shall we start? 42% of transgender prisoners are in jail for sexual crimes: 45 of them are rapists.

Here's a site that records all the crimes, including murders and sexual offences, on record as having been committed by those under the trans umbrella:

https://transcrimeuk.com/category/violent-offences/murderattempted-murder/

A PP told us about her friend who transitioned and was lovely - it’s been dismissed as one person so just anecdotal. What do you think about the case of the Scottish arsehole being put in a female jail being used as an example why no transgender women should be put in women’s prisons? Is one ‘good trans’ anecdotal and one ‘bad trans’ evidence?

I believe it was used as an example why no TW sex offender should be put in women's prisons, and you have said that yourself.

But to be clear, I do not think men should be in women's prisons, although I understand your position.

prisons - case by case basis. Someone who has been a trans person for a long time and predating their crime, and assuming their crime isn’t of a sexual nature, I can see an argument for them being placed in a prison that aligns with their gender identity. Prisoners who have committed crimes of a sexual or misogynistic nature, no. Same as those who have recently transitioned, or are in the process of. However, they should be offered the same health and mental support as anyone else and their case reviewed should they then fit a criteria to be moved.

Thank you for that. This sounds like a position you have thought through, and most of it I can get behind. I get stuck at " [no to] those who have recently transitioned, or are in the process" because I can't understand a society that would force someone to permenantly alter their genitals (transition) as a condition to granting a right. In any case I am told many TW have no surgical interventions at all on their genitals, and either do not want them or are on waiting lists.

But that leads to the question, "what do we mean by transition?" You call it a process so l assume you mean reassignment surgery, so inversion of the penis etc on top of hormones. But I'm not sure that any two people saying "transition" are imaging the same thing.

have you ever spent any time with a trans person?

Yes. My brother.

Yeah, I am literally quaking in my boots! You keep on with the delusions of grandeur though.

sports - not sure, evidence seems inconclusive at the moment and dependant on lots of factors like whether they’ve been through male puberty. So I guess right now, I’m leaning towards no, with an open mind regarding those athletes who transitioned before going through male puberty.

prisons - case by case basis. Someone who has been a trans person for a long time and predating their crime, and assuming their crime isn’t of a sexual nature, I can see an argument for them being placed in a prison that aligns with their gender identity. Prisoners who have committed crimes of a sexual or misogynistic nature, no. Same as those who have recently transitioned, or are in the process of. However, they should be offered the same health and mental support as anyone else and their case reviewed should they then fit a criteria to be moved.

Toilets etc - no problem with mixed sex loos except for men’s loos usually being gross so I’d rather have female only ones for that reason alone.

Changing rooms - I’m not down with communal changing rooms at all, so would rather have private cubicles. Again, no issue if they are mixed.

Compelled pronoun use - don’t know what you mean. If you mean using the pronoun someone wants to be referred to with, I’m totally happy with that. Same as if someone changed their name to Lollypop Head - if that’s what they want me to call them, I will. If you mean people being forced to declare their pronouns - less convinced by this, because I think it forces people to choose and I’m not that keen on people having to declare themselves one way or another. I wouldn’t ask someone their sexuality, so it’s non of my business what gender they align with. However, I do think people should be offered the chance to state their preferred pronouns and the respect of others using them.

what do you think about the AMA & AAP saying that the anti-trans laws in the USA will increase depression and suicide amongst youths?

A PP told us about her friend who transitioned and was lovely - it’s been dismissed as one person so just anecdotal. What do you think about the case of the Scottish arsehole being put in a female jail being used as an example why no transgender women should be put in women’s prisons? Is one ‘good trans’ anecdotal and one ‘bad trans’ evidence?

why is me glibly saying words to the effect of ‘maybe your debating skills would be better if you read some proper papers’ an ad hominem attack, but ‘you remind me of jolyon (inference being they hate jolyon) and ‘bless your heart (inference= you’re a bit naive) not ad hominem?

have you ever spent any time with a trans person?

I despair and am sorry to be unkind, but justasking that was a random inane statement delivered as proof. Proof of what, is unclear.

I can assure you miss Jones never crossed paths with the probation service but she never broke the law.

And...? Kindly, it's unclear what point you're trying to make with this example. There are old-fashioned transsexuals who live quietly and don't break the law. Agreed. And there are (because we have the evidence) plenty of people who identify as transgender who do. Transwomen prisoners have the same offending rates as men, because they are men. Every cell of their body will contain XY cells.