Elliot Page on Elizabeth Day

Transmen usually don't engage in aggressive destruction of men's boundaries or single sex spaces. Nor are they usually motivated by sexual fetishism.

If there’s real body dysmorphia then one can only be sympathetic to individual transmen.

But the general ideology is problematic- instead of standing strong in sisterhood and fighting the good fight for the liberal of women and girls from sexism, it’s like they’re traitors - going over to the enemy.

@ArabeIIaScott

You realise just how similar this rhetoric is to how Gay and Lesbian people where treated in the UK and still are around the world today.

The concept of being homosexual was abnormal and escaping the religious values of monogamy and heterosexuality was seen as unhealthy. Well i say unhealthy it was treated much worse than that. Gay men where also consistently framed as predators or paedophiles in the same way Trans Women are today amongst a range of other stereotypes.

Just because this isn't tied to religion doesn't mean what you're saying is any different. Most Transgender people do not choose to become trans whether you can believe that or not. Trans people have existed forever in different cultures and the prevalence of more Transgender people coming out, alongside medical advances such as HRT and better acceptance for non-binary people has opened that pandoras box and made it impossible to go back.

You may see this as a bad thing but it can be a way to a better life. A lot live in intense fear and may never come out. I know a friend who is contemplating killing herself because she can't bare to face the ridicule in Japan and the fact she will never be accepted. These are silent deaths, not as many as the media would lead you to believe but they do happen more often than they should.

That's a paper (in poor English) from Malaysian authors with a case study of a distressed male who was raped as a 12 year old and nothing to do with NHS outcomes.

@evieowlette I think you've linked the wrong thing, as what you have linked is a case study about a de-transitioner and about how to successfully manage de-transition.

I'm not commenting on Page; I hope the book tour finishes soon and they get a rest from promoting it.

What I'm curious about is the emotional onanism the interviewer and commenter are indulging in. Entrancing themselves with a vacuous narrative about being 'true to yourself' and bawling their eyes out over it.

I suppose its a sort of asexual version of the fairytale princess Happy Ending people are looking for - an alternative to the Big Romance is the Big Self Reveal.

Maybe that's a slight improvement in that women might move away a bit from wanting the Perfect Man/HEA, maybe Finding the Self is a little less risky (leaving aside the politics of transition).

But it's still a mirage and an impossible promise. The basic premise is escaping the self, which isn't possible and is unhealthy. Transformation. Escape. Rebirth. We long for it and as we do so we remain stuck.

I do wish as a culture we'd move onto healthier narratives. Acceptance is very unexciting but it's the only thing that really works, I think.

@RoseslnTheHospital Here we go. Found the paper: https://jmedicalcasereports.org/uploads/178/13015_pdf.pdf

The results found that out of 3398 patients only 0.47% expressed any kind of regret or de-transitioned. Or 16 people. 13 only de-transitioned temporarily due to other factors which left 3 people unhappy with the treatment. This makes this treatment the most effective treatment on the NHS.

I just get the impression that Page needs to sit down with a good therapist. What has happened in their past needs therapy and understanding not a book tour. Elliot looks burnt out and in my opinion could do with getting out of the limelight.

Sorry for the spelling mistakes. I'm used to being able to edit posts after posting. I can't even delete and re-post here which is rubbish

Of course. It's just one statistics in a video about the failed healthcare system for Transgender patients: s

The bibliography for it is attached: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRRaC0-7ejSXkPaHwzPkLEGDDfztyGIpyhjoKv3aomkSZXBBT2mhZEXg4AW2pAmr8SvbpWNtL5GCoKj/pub

The only time Page smiles in this clip is at the end when the interviewer wells up and tells Page how beautiful Page’s words are.

Page is promoting a book, and wants to present a particular image in order to do that. I think if someone is repeatedly putting themselves out there via interviews promoting their recent work then other people are to be expected to comment.

I don't find Page's words or presentation of their chosen image to be convincing and Page isn't successfully managing to sell me anything.

Why is it always sympathy for Trans Masculine people and hatred for Trans Feminine people.

In my months here on Mumsnet and its Feminism board, I have seen many emotions directed towards trans women and trans men, including pity, bafflement, frustration and disbelief, but never have I seen any hatred towards them.

It may be that trans men barely get a look in because generally they are not the ones agitating to access women’s spaces and women’s sports, or posting misogynistic parodies of women on TikTok.

"even though officially it has the highest success rate of any medical treatment on the NHS." is there evidence for that somewhere? I'd like to drill down further into what that means, precisely.

Nice to know a person can just say they are something and we all have to agree, even when the evidence of our own eyes says otherwise.

I think it's important to point out though under the NHS there is a massive 4-6 year waiting gap for most Gender Identity Clinic first appointments and another year or 2 for hormone treatment to start, even though officially it has the highest success rate of any medical treatment on the NHS.

Surgery for GRS can take years to arrange so saying a Trans person is only trans after hormone therapy isn't just transphobic it's also incredibly impractical.

The term Hormone replacement therapy is used interchangeably for women undergoing menopause and Transgender individuals which is confusing I have to admit. Sometimes medical professionals call it GAHT but no Transgender person does from what I can tell so it's kind of useless using that term. It also uses exactly the medications (Estradiol, Progesterone) just in a higher concentration to lower the levels of Testosterone in the body amongst other things.
This has a bunch of different effects (See image below)

Yes you're right, advocating a Trans Woman needs to take hormones is transphobic, you can't decide someone else's labels. I'm not advocating Trans Women have to take hormones at all i'm saying it helps with this predicament you shared and I think most Trans Women are aware of that and want to transition biologically

I'm gender-critical and I agree. I know Page is putting themselves on TV/Media but I find any speculation on people of this sort a bit distasteful. It's MN though so I'm in the minority! Evaulate what they say, sure. Critique their actions, sure.

Pile-ons on individuals often get deleted though, so might be best if people kept it polite.

I know this is not the point of the OP, but what struck he was the interviewer* but I can't imagine any male interviewer "being so emotional for" anyone who is transitioning. And it read to me as those, again, women required to do the emotional labour for others.

*I've never heard of Elizabeth Day before

Are MGTOW a big deal anymore? Their figureheads seem like nobodies these days.

What hormones are being replaced?

It's not HRT. Hormone replacement therapy is for women undergoing menopause who are no longer producing the hormones their body needs to stay healthy.

Men identifying as women are not experiencing a loss of hormone production. Therefore they are not in need of HRT.

As an FYI, advocating that transwomen need to take hormones, or do anything at all to their male bodies in order to "be women", is regarded as very transphobic in some quarters.

I don't think a trans person looking sad in an interview is somehow proof that transition was wrong for them.

Yeah I type fast. Haven't got time to be a grammar queen. Couldn't edit it even if I wanted to haha

That's fair. Honestly if anyone gets violently aggressive regardless of gender just get the fuck out of there, it's happened enough times to me to learn anyone is capable of it although some are stronger than others, I just don't see the point in placing people into boxes, it breeds prejudice for no reason.

I guess this is one benefit of HRT and providing faster access for Trans Women. It's bad to say testosterone is the sole cause of violence and aggression but it doesn't help, similarly muscle mass significantly reduces post HRT from what i've heard