Elliot Page on Elizabeth Day

If you look at the rape and assault charges for Trans Women across the country nearly all happened whilst the assailant was still a man.

Of course they did. People can't change sex, so men who at some point in their lives identify as 'transwomen' are still men, so all their crimes are committed while they are 'still men'.

The issue is crossdressers and predatory individuals disguising themselves as Trans Women under the pretence to do significant harm to other Cisgendered Women.

How do we tell the difference between a man who genuinely believes himself to be a 'transwoman' and a man who is pretending to be a 'transwomen'? Layla Moran has a method of seeing into people's souls, but most of us don't have that ability, so how can we know?

And I'll just remind you again of the mumsnet rules about using 'cis'.

https://www.mumsnet.com/i/trans-rights-moderation-policy

A law can be introduced to kick Trans Women out of spaces but then Trans Men (Including passing Trans Men) have the right to enter Womens only spaces. Then you blur the lines even more for the type of people you expect to see in these places making it even easier for a Cisgendered Man to walk in and do whatever he wants. Nobody has considered this possibility yet because it isn't in law yet.

Well, if all men who believe themselves to be 'transwomen' use men's spaces, and women who are 'passing transmen' also use men's spaces (because the men won't notice because they pass), then women's spaces can be for just women again.

You might argue to kick Trans Women out of women's only spaces entirely but there is no way to enforce this because there are plenty of passing Trans Women you don't see and can't just check the genitals of no matter how much you would like to in this scenario.

No we don't want to check anyone's genitals. One of the problems of men using women's spaces is that they're often far too keen to show us their genitals when we don't want to see them. And a man who has has his penis amputated is still a man anyway.

And if so-called 'transwomen' know they shouldn't be in women's spaces, why would any of them be in there? What sort of person goes into a space where they don't belong when they know that they might cause distress to the women in there? You really seem to have a very low opinion of so-called 'transwomen'.

there are plenty of passing Trans Women you don't see

None of the transwomen I know personally passes fully. While they may not look conventionally male/masculine, they don’t look female.

In my experience, transwomen appear to pass because women are socialised to be polite and kind.

Men are not necessarily socialised to be nice and kind, and some of them see transwomen as an aberration in being male/masculine. The violence some transwomen may face is on the basis of sex - their male sex.

Men and boys are often “punished” by other men for their sex and gender non-conformity. Transwomen particularly so.

My point is the males or how i'd describe "Trans Women" who are afraid and going into women's same sex toilets and changing rooms and are terrified of being kicked out and aren't the people convicting these kind of crimes. If you look at the rape and assault charges for Trans Women across the country nearly all happened whilst the assailant was still a man. These are predatory individuals who have no shame walking into these spaces anyway regardless of how they look.

The issue is crossdressers and predatory individuals disguising themselves as Trans Women under the pretence to do significant harm to other Cisgendered Women. The problem is there is no easy solution to this. A law can be introduced to kick Trans Women out of spaces but then Trans Men (Including passing Trans Men) have the right to enter Womens only spaces. Then you blur the lines even more for the type of people you expect to see in these places making it even easier for a Cisgendered Man to walk in and do whatever he wants. Nobody has considered this possibility yet because it isn't in law yet.

You might argue to kick Trans Women out of women's only spaces entirely but there is no way to enforce this because there are plenty of passing Trans Women you don't see and can't just check the genitals of no matter how much you would like to in this scenario.

I made a joke (years ago) in my Lesbian group; "Ugh, who wants to be a man?" Two gay men who were trans in my group complained about me and tried to have me thrown out.
Men who are trans , whether gay or straight act like men and of course cannot bear to hear a word against their sex!

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius and @SideWonder thank you. Lesbians get a lot of support here and I clearly see our future is with women's groups.

@Ofcourseshecan - your post made me think of the saying - Men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them. I think that applies even when the man in question is ‘trans’.

This is worth repeating. You put it so clearly.

And also to say @QueenHippolyta how sorry I am to hear so many stories from lesbian friends about how gender extremist ideology is making their lives difficult & painful.

I wish gay men were better at listening to lesbians, but plus ça change. They've never been interested.

What difference does it make to women if males are terrified when they invade women’s spaces? They still do it.

I still get the same stress/fear response when I encounter a man in a place where he’s not meant to be, regardless of how he’s feeling. This has happened several times in the past few years. It is definitely increasing.

We know men enter women’s spaces, sometimes claiming to be women, and attack women because of the cases that come to court. Most sexual assaults go unrecorded, so cases in the news are the tip of the iceberg.

The treatment of lesbians by the trans rights movement makes me incandescent with age, @QueenHippolyta - I can only imagine how horrible it must feel to be treated this way.

evieowlette

Do you think that Elliot Page is now a heterosexual man and straight women would, or should, accept him as such?

And, on that basis, lesbian women will be rejecting him out of hand?

“Transmen” are females AKA women. Like what Elliott Page is. Which is why they were allowed to attend.

I haven’t heard this interview but Day gushes and coos over everyone she interviews. It’s why I unsubscribed from her podcast.

Quickly Googled Le Tigre.

Le Tigre, along with several acts from Mr. Lady, played at the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival in 2001 and 2005. This festival became controversial for its "womyn-born womyn" stance and exclusion of trans women from the festival, leading critics to believe that Mr. Lady and Le Tigre were transphobic. Several acts from the label, including Le Tigre and The Butchies, received verbal harassment and death threats as a result of playing at the 2001 festival.

It's shocking and repugnant what male activists did to Michfest. One of the worst moments in the torrid history of genderism.

I'm sorry wait the same Michigan Womyn's Festival Le Tigre played at. The same one they where forced out of for simply accepting that they wanted to play, not by Trans Women I might add. Is this the same festival where Trans Men where allowed as well regardless. You're acting like Trans Women's attendance single handedly destroyed it. The festival was burnt down by it's own members.

Yes, I have seen several confidently walk into the ladies. But I am sure it is indeed terrifying to anticipate one's carefully constructed fantasy to come crashing down.

I'm a 50 something Lesbian and NO it is not the same. We simply wanted the same legal rights as heterosexuals.
We didn't demand they change reality. We didn't force ourselves socially and demand straight people include us in their sexuality.

The Michigan Womyn's Festival was destroyed by male trans activists. There is barely a Lesbian club, bookstore or cafe left due to men's demands that they be included. Young Lesbians are told to accept girldick.

This entire Trans movement is homophobic to the core. So STOP USING US

“I actually think it's closer to the true meaning of transphobic to give trans people a lower standard of care, with very little honesty or informed consent, as these claims do.”

I agree.

But the poster has declared on another thread that we have no critical thinking skills in this ‘absolute cesspit’…. Guess we are the wrong type of feminists. We don’t ‘affirm’ poor knowledge and misinformation, we challenge the shit out it.

I think, in general, you should be wary of anyone claiming anything is:" even though officially it has the highest success rate of any medical treatment on the NHS." That is not the language used by reputable researchers.

NHS treatments include: having your appendix out, measles vaccines, dental work, painkillers... all of these have objective outcome measures for success and are extremely successful treatments.

Any unnecessary or cosmetic treatment claiming to be more successful than the lifesaving act of whipping out an appendix when all you can measure is regret/happiness immediately after surgery despite worse physical health, is the language of a snake oil salesman.

I actually think it's closer to the true meaning of transphobic to give trans people a lower standard of care, with very little honesty or informed consent, as these claims do.

We can provide you with another 3 or 4 studies about the physical comparisons between males on testosterone and females if you would like? The decreases in nearly all aspects of physical measurements leaves a significant gap.

If I remember correctly the grip strength of the weakest quartile of testosterone reduced male were still stronger than 90 % of all female people.

And that is not punch power, which is one of the hugest differences.

I was quoting from a UK NHS regional review and a European review. I think that I am quite comfortable with the statistics I have seen. thanks.

“even though officially it has the highest success rate of any medical treatment on the NHS.”

You said it was the ‘highest success rate of any medical treatment’ on the NHS.

There is NO data that makes this true. Why did you say this!

@ArabeIIaScott It's not really a hot take. I'm noting the similarities between how to speak about Trans Women to how Gay and Lesbian populations have been treated in the past. I don't need to be patronised I understand the basic history behind pride even if I may not know the specifics. I'm happy to be enlightened though

Interesting. Yeah i'm fine being proven wrong I know there is a decrease in muscle mass but I didn't know by how much. I'm not the oracle on these things after all. I'm not Trans myself.

it's a good case for exclusion from specific sports competitions. I should also note a general reduction in libido, sexual disfunction and variable rates of sterilisation across the Trans Women population also have an effect obviously. How much I don't know. I'm sure there is a research study somewhere

Thank you, yes. I got out safely. Unfortunately some men have very odd fetishes.

Well, I suppose they do say every generation thinks they've invented sex, but it does make me feel somewhat old and tired to have it earnestly explained to me.

Pet, I'm talking about self acceptance. I have no idea how you've managed to find a hot take on gay history in there, but I suggest you put it away for now.