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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Elliot Page on Elizabeth Day

115 replies

RatatouilleAndFeta · 05/07/2023 13:54

Still not looking entirely "joyful"

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CuTxQpfgZDF/?igshid=MTIzZWMxMTBkOA==

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Datun · 11/07/2023 07:37

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 10/07/2023 23:46

See to me that's just infantilising women, insinuating they don't know what's right for them, and painting us all as victims.
It's sick.
The constant infantalising and victimising, I mean.

In my opinion, the various and distinct causes of gender dysphoria is a significant issue in all of this. So I'm more than happy to listen to different points of view.

What do you think is the reason for such an overwhelming increase in young girls showing up at gender clinics?

RoseslnTheHospital · 10/07/2023 23:50

That's your unusual interpretation of what is a nuanced and interesting discussion point.

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 10/07/2023 23:46

ArabeIIaScott · 10/07/2023 17:18

'women identifying as men are generally escaping something, whereas men identifying as women are trying to attain something.'

Very true, yep.

See to me that's just infantilising women, insinuating they don't know what's right for them, and painting us all as victims.
It's sick.
The constant infantalising and victimising, I mean.

Rudderneck · 10/07/2023 19:13

I don't think that what Page's biography says about Page can necessarily be extrapolated though.

He's suggesting there has been some change that has precipitated the return of this approach to mortifying the flesh. But is exploitative Hollywood bs really new? It doesn't seem like it is. Twenty years ago though young actresses weren't cutting off their breasts to escape objectification.

ArabeIIaScott · 10/07/2023 17:18

'women identifying as men are generally escaping something, whereas men identifying as women are trying to attain something.'

Very true, yep.

Datun · 10/07/2023 11:15

ArabeIIaScott · 10/07/2023 08:39

Presumably it's a rhetorical question?

'This ‘minacious voice’ returns. It tells her, ‘You deserve the humiliation. You are an abomination.’ Later, however, ‘that fucking voice’ brings salvation: it reveals unto her the trans resurrection she must undergo to deliver herself from self-hatred. ‘You don’t have to feel this way’, it says.'

Heartbreaking.

'...women were innately sinful, in their bodies, whereas men were more likely to sin in the world, in their actions. Hence, holy women’s battles with evil took place entirely within the locus of their own flesh, whereas men’s occurred in the world of things and ideas and choices. Deprived of access to the earthly realms of priesthood and learning, women had little choice but to demonstrate their virtue in the one realm where they had control: their bodies.'

😔

'Ours is an era of female liberation, of ‘girl bosses’, of women being told that, if anything, they’re better than blokes at many social and political endeavours. And yet self-mortification has crept back in'

Hm. Perhaps there has been a time during which we tried to achieve equity and reparation for the many centuries of male domination by encouraging girls and women to consider the possibility of liberation; and perhaps the underlying woman-hatred and deeply entrenched power structures are not that easy to shift.

He doesn't seem capable of answering it tho, other than through the lens of female self hatred. He doesn't seem to realise that women don't just wake up and hate themselves. And that women identifying as men are generally escaping something, whereas men identifying as women are trying to attain something.

Dianbeatthis · 10/07/2023 08:40

That’s so interesting. I’m certainly going to look out the Bell and Schulenburg books. Page’s book sounds grim. All that self-punching, self-hatred and starving until they alighted upon the sanctioned act of transitioning to ‘become’ something other than they were. A fantastic piece of writing. Of course we all suspect that the appalling acts of misogyny she experienced must have contributed to this too. How could they not?

I’m sure this book will be read by countless young women entering into and going through the turmoil of puberty. How bloody sad is that?

ArabeIIaScott · 10/07/2023 08:39

Presumably it's a rhetorical question?

'This ‘minacious voice’ returns. It tells her, ‘You deserve the humiliation. You are an abomination.’ Later, however, ‘that fucking voice’ brings salvation: it reveals unto her the trans resurrection she must undergo to deliver herself from self-hatred. ‘You don’t have to feel this way’, it says.'

Heartbreaking.

'...women were innately sinful, in their bodies, whereas men were more likely to sin in the world, in their actions. Hence, holy women’s battles with evil took place entirely within the locus of their own flesh, whereas men’s occurred in the world of things and ideas and choices. Deprived of access to the earthly realms of priesthood and learning, women had little choice but to demonstrate their virtue in the one realm where they had control: their bodies.'

😔

'Ours is an era of female liberation, of ‘girl bosses’, of women being told that, if anything, they’re better than blokes at many social and political endeavours. And yet self-mortification has crept back in'

Hm. Perhaps there has been a time during which we tried to achieve equity and reparation for the many centuries of male domination by encouraging girls and women to consider the possibility of liberation; and perhaps the underlying woman-hatred and deeply entrenched power structures are not that easy to shift.

BettyFilous · 10/07/2023 08:26

Good point Datun. It was an interesting read nonetheless. From the excerpts included, I can only feel pity for Page.

Datun · 10/07/2023 08:13

That's a good article in that he's a terrific writer.

He says he's read Page's autobiography biography. But then asks 'How do we explain the return of contempt for female flesh?'

I haven't read the book, but I know Page talks about their experience of awful sexual abuse in Hollywood including a famous film star saying "I’m going to fuck you to make you realize you aren’t gay. I’m going to lick your asshole. It is going to taste like lime. You’re not gay.”

When O'Neill asks 'How do we explain the return of contempt for female flesh?' why hasn't the perfectly transparent answer slapped him in the face?

He talks as though he's wildly casting around to identify the impetus to escape womanhood, when it's perfectly obvious that misogyny is to blame.

I know fish don't know they're wet, but really.

Rudderneck · 10/07/2023 00:00

Wow, that article is quite something.

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 09/07/2023 22:23

That's a great article, thanks @Backstreets .

SideWonder · 07/07/2023 11:48

The term Hormone replacement therapy is used interchangeably for women undergoing menopause and Transgender individuals

No it's NOT.

For the hard of thinking: HRT stands for
Hormone
Replacement
Therapy

Men who think they are women take Cross-Sex hormones. These are adding to their hormonal mix, not replacing sex-specific hormones which largely disappear at the end of women's reproductive lives.

Cailin66 · 07/07/2023 10:45

evieowlette · 05/07/2023 16:49

I think it's important to point out though under the NHS there is a massive 4-6 year waiting gap for most Gender Identity Clinic first appointments and another year or 2 for hormone treatment to start, even though officially it has the highest success rate of any medical treatment on the NHS.

Surgery for GRS can take years to arrange so saying a Trans person is only trans after hormone therapy isn't just transphobic it's also incredibly impractical.

What has the highest success rate of NHS medical treatment? And can you link us to this?

AmuseBish · 07/07/2023 10:37

You're not mistaken. I've been told I'm posters I'm not by this poster.

Even if it were true, I don't think it's allowed to explicitly post people's other usernames.

Helleofabore · 07/07/2023 10:29

I thought Rat and Feta was around before owlette. I must be mistaken.

QueenHippolyta · 07/07/2023 09:21

Evieowlette is now @RatatouilleAndFeta
Won't anyone think of the poor Men (transwomen)sob

what kind of selfish bitches are we to deprive them of their validation.

Helleofabore · 07/07/2023 09:00

By the way @evieowlette I posted reams of links on the other thread yesterday. You did say that you would read studies and papers, I suggest that you start with those. Feel free to tell us which ones you find problematic, it would be a very interesting conversation.

Or was your post saying you would read studies and papers performative and not something you were ever intending to do?

MavisMcMinty · 06/07/2023 21:15

Given that you learnt so much on these threads yesterday, @evieowlette , may I point out that you don’t need to capitalise Trans Women, Trans Men, and shouldn’t be using the terms cisgender/ciswomen at all when you’ve been asked not to by plenty of posters. Capitalised or not, I am not cis, I am a woman who needs no prefix. Thanks.

Ourladycheesusedatum · 06/07/2023 21:03

evieowlette · 06/07/2023 19:17

My point is the males or how i'd describe "Trans Women" who are afraid and going into women's same sex toilets and changing rooms and are terrified of being kicked out and aren't the people convicting these kind of crimes. If you look at the rape and assault charges for Trans Women across the country nearly all happened whilst the assailant was still a man. These are predatory individuals who have no shame walking into these spaces anyway regardless of how they look.

The issue is crossdressers and predatory individuals disguising themselves as Trans Women under the pretence to do significant harm to other Cisgendered Women. The problem is there is no easy solution to this. A law can be introduced to kick Trans Women out of spaces but then Trans Men (Including passing Trans Men) have the right to enter Womens only spaces. Then you blur the lines even more for the type of people you expect to see in these places making it even easier for a Cisgendered Man to walk in and do whatever he wants. Nobody has considered this possibility yet because it isn't in law yet.

You might argue to kick Trans Women out of women's only spaces entirely but there is no way to enforce this because there are plenty of passing Trans Women you don't see and can't just check the genitals of no matter how much you would like to in this scenario.

A huge problem now is if you report a rape and use the wrong pronoun or say a man did it (only men can rape) then you might be up on charges of transphobia.

Even the potential of being dragged through court for that will put off many women. Then if you did and even got to court ( vanishingly unlikely) you would have to use the correct pronouns for your rapist. I know I couldn't do that.

Ourladycheesusedatum · 06/07/2023 20:45

evieowlette · 05/07/2023 16:49

I think it's important to point out though under the NHS there is a massive 4-6 year waiting gap for most Gender Identity Clinic first appointments and another year or 2 for hormone treatment to start, even though officially it has the highest success rate of any medical treatment on the NHS.

Surgery for GRS can take years to arrange so saying a Trans person is only trans after hormone therapy isn't just transphobic it's also incredibly impractical.

I didnt mention this on the other thread you disappeared from but I've been waiting a very very long time for an eye operation. More than 5 years now (covid did not help)

So because I can see a bit out of one eye I'm low on the list, and that's medical need.

Other non medical operations should have a long wait time.

Ourladycheesusedatum · 06/07/2023 20:41

evieowlette · 05/07/2023 16:45

The term Hormone replacement therapy is used interchangeably for women undergoing menopause and Transgender individuals which is confusing I have to admit. Sometimes medical professionals call it GAHT but no Transgender person does from what I can tell so it's kind of useless using that term. It also uses exactly the medications (Estradiol, Progesterone) just in a higher concentration to lower the levels of Testosterone in the body amongst other things.
This has a bunch of different effects (See image below)

Yes you're right, advocating a Trans Woman needs to take hormones is transphobic, you can't decide someone else's labels. I'm not advocating Trans Women have to take hormones at all i'm saying it helps with this predicament you shared and I think most Trans Women are aware of that and want to transition biologically

On another thread you are adamant they all want surgery and bleat on about how long it takes.
Make up your mind

Ourladycheesusedatum · 06/07/2023 20:38

evieowlette · 05/07/2023 16:25

That's fair. Honestly if anyone gets violently aggressive regardless of gender just get the fuck out of there, it's happened enough times to me to learn anyone is capable of it although some are stronger than others, I just don't see the point in placing people into boxes, it breeds prejudice for no reason.

I guess this is one benefit of HRT and providing faster access for Trans Women. It's bad to say testosterone is the sole cause of violence and aggression but it doesn't help, similarly muscle mass significantly reduces post HRT from what i've heard

Do you never learn?

It's not HRT when men take it.

ArabeIIaScott · 06/07/2023 20:24

The issue is crossdressers and predatory individuals disguising themselves as Trans Women

I agree. There is no way to tell the difference. And what do all of these people have in common? They are male.

Males commit 98% of all sexual assaults and around 80% of all violent assaults.

Women as a class need single sex spaces.