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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Male and Gender Critical

311 replies

Letmespeak82 · 04/07/2023 20:32

Anyone else find being associated with some of the male Gender Critical activists a bit…well embarrassing? I’m not even going to deal with the dumpster fire that is Glinner (though it seems many on this board love him). But now we have James Esses who is hyper focused on what this woman is wearing. What difference does it make if she wears revealing clothes or not? Typical gross male attitude.

Male and Gender Critical
Male and Gender Critical
OP posts:
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NotHavingIt · 07/07/2023 10:01

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 07/07/2023 09:15

I hope it's just that you just haven't bothered to read the thread properly, and aren't trying a poor attempt at gaslighting.

Yes, I've read the thread.....and she is like a broken record.

Florissante · 07/07/2023 09:21

BezMills · 06/07/2023 19:59

Dumb thread is dumb. It checks out

Dumb post is dumb. It checks out.

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 07/07/2023 09:15

NotHavingIt · 06/07/2023 19:51

Nobody but you has suggested that, though. It is like you are on endless repeat.

I hope it's just that you just haven't bothered to read the thread properly, and aren't trying a poor attempt at gaslighting.

BezMills · 06/07/2023 19:59

Dumb thread is dumb. It checks out

NotHavingIt · 06/07/2023 19:51

Letmespeak82 · 06/07/2023 17:54

It’s not my logic at all. I’ve said all along people make assumptions about clothes. So of course if you are trying to impress a client showing up in clothes that may cause them to make assumptions about you would be pretty dumb.

the point I’m actually making is that the particular association people make between wearing revealing clothing and being “up for it” is wrong and misogynistic.

Nobody but you has suggested that, though. It is like you are on endless repeat.

NotHavingIt · 06/07/2023 19:50

Letmespeak82 · 06/07/2023 17:46

It’s a little bizarre to make the claim that “it doesn’t really matter what you intend” just because you can’t control the reception.

of course what the individual intends matters to this debate. Because when other people assume stuff about you based on it (the reception you talk about” they are either correct or incorrect.

let’s take the example of a rape case. Let’s also assume that enough people on the jury make assumptions about what a woman wears to influence the outcome of the case.

would you really make the argument that what the woman actually intended by wearing the clothes is irrelevant?

Forget nuance and the subtleties of life. Blank everything anyone says which veers off the desired response. Be a one trick pony.

Letmespeak82 · 06/07/2023 17:54

MsRosley · 06/07/2023 14:21

This. If you follow OP's logic, clothes don't convey meaning in any way. In which case it would be absolutely fine to turn up to an important client meeting in your pyjamas, as it would in no way signal you're not committed to winning that new contract.

It’s not my logic at all. I’ve said all along people make assumptions about clothes. So of course if you are trying to impress a client showing up in clothes that may cause them to make assumptions about you would be pretty dumb.

the point I’m actually making is that the particular association people make between wearing revealing clothing and being “up for it” is wrong and misogynistic.

OP posts:
Letmespeak82 · 06/07/2023 17:46

NotHavingIt · 05/07/2023 18:55

The point is that it doesn't really matter what you intend or don't intend, or if you have no intention at all ( which I doubt very much) when it coes to selecting what to wear; the point is that you cannot control the reception.

It is extremely naive to imagine that people don't make judgements about others based on any number of factors; clothing and presentation being one of them But you know that anyway.

I've no idea what individual women intend? How would I know?

I think many people, especially of more youthful/reproductive ages are interested in appearing as attractive as possible - wanting to attract positive attention; have people say nice or flattering things about their clothes, or their figure. They tend to know what flatters them and wear clothes which highlight their best bits, and so on.

It’s a little bizarre to make the claim that “it doesn’t really matter what you intend” just because you can’t control the reception.

of course what the individual intends matters to this debate. Because when other people assume stuff about you based on it (the reception you talk about” they are either correct or incorrect.

let’s take the example of a rape case. Let’s also assume that enough people on the jury make assumptions about what a woman wears to influence the outcome of the case.

would you really make the argument that what the woman actually intended by wearing the clothes is irrelevant?

OP posts:
Letmespeak82 · 06/07/2023 17:40

thedankness · 05/07/2023 18:15

@Letmespeak82 Why did you wear revealing clothes to a club? If you checked your outfit in the mirror before you went out then you at least cared a little about how you looked which means you cared how others looked at you. Of course this doesn’t mean you wanted sex/sexual attention from others although for some women that might genuinely be their intention for dressing in a certain way. But I’m assuming that you didn’t feel you looked worse for wearing a revealing outfit?

Of course I care what people think about my appearance etc. But more in a “oh she looks good” rather than “I’m sure she shags anything with a pulse so I’ll try my luck” kind of way. One is people’s opinions on a visual image they are seeing - acceptable. The other is people’s opinion on my inner thoughts that they can’t see - unacceptable.

OP posts:
GarlicGrace · 06/07/2023 15:58

In other news, the alphabet people should come up with a label for my "too broke & knackered to date, too selfish to cohabit, medication killed my libido" identitee 😏

GarlicGrace · 06/07/2023 15:55

*people who thinks asexuals should just stay silent and never talk about themselves (or at least this part of them) and sit there silently, when others get to talk about themselves just fine.

Hopefully one day asexuality will be more known and accepted and I can be honest with the people I care about.*

If everybody's talking about their sex lives - unusual unless you're young - and you don't have one, the only honest contribution you can make is that you aren't interested in sex, @YouAreNotBatman. There's absolutely no reason why you can't say so, is there? Sure, it leaves you out of that conversation, just as I'm excluded from enthusiastic discussions of cycling or football.

Why do you think you can't be honest with the people you care about? I'm 'asexual' these days - haven't had sex in 15 years and can't be bothered any more. I wasn't always this way but have no qualms about telling people, and fail to see why you shouldn't.

If you'd like to be coupled up without sex, there's no reason why you shouldn't say so, is there? Sex is usually the glue in long-term relationships, but there are certainly a lot of non-sexual pairings for a multitude of reasons. You're more likely to meet potential partners if you know what you're looking for, and say so.

MsRosley · 06/07/2023 14:21

NotTerfNorCis · 04/07/2023 21:19

Clothes are not 'just clothes' though. We wear different clothes for different occasions. For instance, you might wear smart business dress to meet a customer, but slob around in an old jumper when working from home.

This. If you follow OP's logic, clothes don't convey meaning in any way. In which case it would be absolutely fine to turn up to an important client meeting in your pyjamas, as it would in no way signal you're not committed to winning that new contract.

Rudderneck · 06/07/2023 13:16

As far as this idea about asexuals having sex and even wanting it in some sense, I suspect part of it is the people who talk about these divisions have a very narrow idea about what sexual desire is meant to look like.

This is why they claim that "demisexual" is a sexuality - the idea that someone might want sex only with feelings of attachment is seen as somehow different than just a normal personality thing that might even be just for a period in life.

Similarly, my friend's dickhead husband recently "came out" to he as polysexual, which is to say, he'd like to shag other women.

Realistically, the idea that people will only have sex for reasons of sexual desire, or lust, or whatever you want to call it, is unrealistic. There are lots of valid reasons for people to have sex. Getting pregnant being the most obvious, but also a desire for intimacy, or because they are marries/in a relationship they value with someone who would like to have sex, etc. There is a big difference between not being super sexually motivated and actively not wanting sex in terms of how someone might make decisions about relationships.

It used to be that adults were considered capable of making decisions based on their long and short term feelings and commitments about all of this, and didn't have to label it. Now they do seem to want those labels, but since there are millions of people with different circumstances and goals, it's pretty impossible.

Florissante · 06/07/2023 11:46

AlisonDonut · 06/07/2023 10:26

The just say they don't care, don't they?

It is you making the rest up.

I certainly said "No one cares" but I did not say "keep it to yourself".

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/07/2023 11:32

I find it both chilling and rapey, that it's being pushed at a time when many young people are being medicated/ operated on into having no sexual function.

It was actually used by a lawyer in the Keira Bell hearing as a partial justification for why puberty blockers wouldn't necessarily ruin a child's life if they couldn't ever have an orgasm. "Lots of people are asexual".

https://twitter.com/sorxxx_/status/1314880173142048768?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

QueenHippolyta · 06/07/2023 11:14

@YouAreNotBatman I started with the Lesbian community to show you that Asexuals don't belong there.
You need your own group, so stop moaning and get organizing.
And get used to being not the majority which active heterosexual people are. Of they don't care!
No one gives a damn about lesbian social problems except my Lesbian social group .
That's the way it is. And it's totally normal.

AlisonDonut · 06/07/2023 10:26

YouAreNotBatman · 06/07/2023 09:41

Ah. Okey, I’ve never had any involvement or interest in anything ’queer’.
Back in the day I only spend sometime in asexual sites.

Well, this place alone has now multiple time said that ”no one cares and keep it to yourself, no one wants to hear, don’t make it into your whole personality, don’t force your sex life/lack there of it to others”.
I pointed out that, I at least, don’t do what people here accuse of asexual of doing.

The just say they don't care, don't they?

It is you making the rest up.

NotHavingIt · 06/07/2023 09:53

YouAreNotBatman · 06/07/2023 09:41

Ah. Okey, I’ve never had any involvement or interest in anything ’queer’.
Back in the day I only spend sometime in asexual sites.

Well, this place alone has now multiple time said that ”no one cares and keep it to yourself, no one wants to hear, don’t make it into your whole personality, don’t force your sex life/lack there of it to others”.
I pointed out that, I at least, don’t do what people here accuse of asexual of doing.

Being aware of the thread starter may go some way to explaining the way the conversation has gone.It was somebody claiming an asexual identity who nontheless wears very provocative, sexualised clothing. Advertsing to the world, very overtly, one type of thing, whilst proclaiming another.

YouAreNotBatman · 06/07/2023 09:41

NotHavingIt · 06/07/2023 08:46

I was explaining why identity labels were disapproved of on this forum. they are associated with the 'queer' community.

Your post made it sound like you experience your asexuality as a problem yourself - because you said you have no support and no-one to talk to.

Ah. Okey, I’ve never had any involvement or interest in anything ’queer’.
Back in the day I only spend sometime in asexual sites.

Well, this place alone has now multiple time said that ”no one cares and keep it to yourself, no one wants to hear, don’t make it into your whole personality, don’t force your sex life/lack there of it to others”.
I pointed out that, I at least, don’t do what people here accuse of asexual of doing.

AlisonDonut · 06/07/2023 09:37

In half an hour we will know if lesbian gay and bisexual people are even allowed their own charity.

Summer2023hasarrived · 06/07/2023 09:00

AlisonDonut · 06/07/2023 08:35

I am not convinced that Asexual hasn't been added to the Alphabet Soup People to further confound all the issues.

So, looking at the Alphabet soup now:

L - Lesbians - anyone whose gender is female being attracted to anyone else whose gender is female [so males or females]

G - Gays- anyone whose gender is male being attracted to anyone else whose gender is male [so males or females]

B - Bi - Anyone attracted to anyone [so males or females]

Trans - anyone who says they are trans

Asexuals - anyone who says they do not want sex or do not have [a] sex

I - intersex - anyone who says they are intersex or have a DSD

So LGB has moved away from same sex attraction to become anyone who wants attention for whatever reason to do with sex, no sex and anything in between.

Yes the LGB movement has been taken by the Alphabet soup people who are screaming for their rights whilst most people don't even know what the vast range of the Alphabet soup people even stand for.

WandaWomblesaurus · 06/07/2023 08:46

AlisonDonut · 05/07/2023 18:56

Why would you BE at PRIDE if you were not interested in sex or sexualities?

It's like going to a train station and hanging around if you don't want to catch a train and aren't interested in trains. And if you take a camera and clipboard and tick a box every time a train goes through people will think you are interested in trains.

It makes no sense.

I know right - is it not just wanting to be at the party? Everyone and their goat now thinks they are under the rainbow flag.

NotHavingIt · 06/07/2023 08:46

YouAreNotBatman · 06/07/2023 08:44

I’ve never said a word about queer community.

No, I am not autistic.
And I don’t have ’difficulties’ forming relationships. I do have trouble finding a like-minded person.
But trying to make this into me having a problem, is incorrect.

I was explaining why identity labels were disapproved of on this forum. they are associated with the 'queer' community.

Your post made it sound like you experience your asexuality as a problem yourself - because you said you have no support and no-one to talk to.

YouAreNotBatman · 06/07/2023 08:44

NotHavingIt · 06/07/2023 08:01

You seem always to have started from the conclusion that everyone who post on this particular board is heterosexual, married and with children. Why is that?

I'm not familar with your username, so maybe you are new ti this board - but what irks people here, especially, about identity labels is that they tend to be assocuiated with the LGBTQ+ community with its ever expanding number of identities - all with their own flag. Young people ( I know you are not young) tend now to fel they have to have a label for every aspect of their personality, character or being.

The queer community ( you say you don't see yourself as apart of theis'community') revolves around identities linked to sex or sexuality - making sexual orinetation the central defining feature of their life. The identities are also politicised; tghey are not neutral.

Are you on the autistic spectrum ( genuine question) as people who are can often experience difficulties in forming relationships.

I’ve never said a word about queer community.

No, I am not autistic.
And I don’t have ’difficulties’ forming relationships. I do have trouble finding a like-minded person.
But trying to make this into me having a problem, is incorrect.

WandaWomblesaurus · 06/07/2023 08:38

"Asexual people deserve to be protected by the Equality Act. We deserve to be protected by the ban on conversion therapy. We should not be pathologised in the ICD. I'm going to keep campaigning for that and wearing fishnet tights, so prepare to be mad for a while."

But what is she saying? Who is pathologising her? Who is trying to convert her? Who even knows you are asexual unless you are telling them?

She's the one saying she will do it in fishnets and that's going to make people mad. Why does she think this is so? She obviously thinks fishnets are provocative so why are you even asking this question OP? Maybe you should be asking her why she thinks anyone gives a flying fuck about her sexuality or her fishnets.