Teenager guilty of murder. Thread 2

@Lavender14 · Yesterday 10:01
I think in terms of those saying mayo chose deliberately to misanswer or lie to the nurse, I really don't think it's as straightforward as that. If you're terrified or in denial enough that you've hidden a secret that large for so many months it becomes extremely difficult to suddenly open up about it. Especially to a stranger who you will know has a duty to report it or at least take further action based on it. I work with lots of vulnerable young people (not with any additional needs just vulnerable due to circumstances) and a lot of those who didn't make disclosures to previous workers said they didn't do so because 'they didn't ask me the right questions '. So because the question wasn't direct enough the young person felt the worker was either still unaware or wouldn't understand or didn't want to support them so was avoiding asking them a straight question. It can also make the worker look like they are uncomfortable with the topic and therefore unequipped to deal with it empathetically so the young person didn't feel able to open up to them because their reaction was therefore unpredictable. It could be that mayo was answering no that she wasn't sexually active because truthfully she wasn't at that time, but if the nurse had asked (what tbh I'd expect as a routine follow up question especially given her symptoms and presentation) 'is there any chance you could be pregnant and should we do a test to rule it out' then there might have been a different outcome. I've had that before with a gp when I truthfully hadn't been sexually active and had to do a test anyway for them to rule it out being thorough so that should have been done here.

My guess is the nurse didn't ask the right questions because of mayo's young age which is actually a huge failure to safeguard effectively on the nurses part. I don't think mayo should be held accountable for a professional not safeguarding effectively. And I say safeguarding because a 14 year old can't give consent for sex so this sounds immediately have been flagged for further investigation. But I'd imagine the nurse didn't want to think of the possibility of a 14 turning 15 year old being pregnant.

I think you have brought a lot of insight into understanding Paris Mayo and how her meeting with the nurse ended up taking the futile course it did. Thank you, your experience with vulnerable young people is evident and shines through your words.

I also think you'd be surprised at how many young teenagers do not have access to proper solid information and education around sexual health and relationships. The stories I hear are genuinely horrifying and a lot of the young people are older than 14 so you'd assume they know more than what they do. Many parents refuse sexual education in school now so we don't know what access to that she actually had.

I think in terms of those saying mayo chose deliberately to misanswer or lie to the nurse, I really don't think it's as straightforward as that. If you're terrified or in denial enough that you've hidden a secret that large for so many months it becomes extremely difficult to suddenly open up about it. Especially to a stranger who you will know has a duty to report it or at least take further action based on it. I work with lots of vulnerable young people (not with any additional needs just vulnerable due to circumstances) and a lot of those who didn't make disclosures to previous workers said they didn't do so because 'they didn't ask me the right questions '. So because the question wasn't direct enough the young person felt the worker was either still unaware or wouldn't understand or didn't want to support them so was avoiding asking them a straight question. It can also make the worker look like they are uncomfortable with the topic and therefore unequipped to deal with it empathetically so the young person didn't feel able to open up to them because their reaction was therefore unpredictable. It could be that mayo was answering no that she wasn't sexually active because truthfully she wasn't at that time, but if the nurse had asked (what tbh I'd expect as a routine follow up question especially given her symptoms and presentation) 'is there any chance you could be pregnant and should we do a test to rule it out' then there might have been a different outcome. I've had that before with a gp when I truthfully hadn't been sexually active and had to do a test anyway for them to rule it out being thorough so that should have been done here.

My guess is the nurse didn't ask the right questions because of mayo's young age which is actually a huge failure to safeguard effectively on the nurses part. I don't think mayo should be held accountable for a professional not safeguarding effectively. And I say safeguarding because a 14 year old can't give consent for sex so this sounds immediately have been flagged for further investigation. But I'd imagine the nurse didn't want to think of the possibility of a 14 turning 15 year old being pregnant.

BreatheandFocus . Today 19:29
You also mentioned autism above. But there is no evidence Mayo has autism

No there isn’t but I gave autism as an extreme example of a process of thinking which can lead someone to answer literally. I did not mean to suggest she is necessarily autistic.

It is perfectly possible though for anyone, imo, to not think around a question and answer over simply and literally, especially a child speaking to an official adult.

It was mentioned that she is pathetic and immature.

She does not need to have been autistic to answer the sex question based on her truth at the present moment, either because she was being literal, or because it was part of mentally separating off any possibility she was pregnant.

As to evidence of autism, just as a point of interest, and hypothetically speaking, on mumsnet a lot of adult women speak of not finding out they are autistic till very late, often when their own children are being diagnosed. I think it very unlikely any of the people dealing with Paris Mayo would necessarily have any idea if she is at all autistic.

All of these studies were available to the Defence, yet Mayo was still found guilty of murder.

Indeed.

And available to the CPS who appeared nonetheless oblivious to the existence of the factors involved in Infanticide, and instead charged her with murder.

This murder charge required different criteria to be proved by the defence, and meant the prosecution did not need to prove that she was not affected in anyway by the denied pregnancy and delivery -

letting the prosecution get away with the spurious, shameful, expert opinion based on web-cam footage.

But I would be willing to bet not available to the jury when they were told, just before they retired to deliberate on the verdict, that they could consider Infanticide as an alternative verdict.

All of these studies were available to the Defence, yet Mayo was still found guilty of murder. You also mentioned autism above. But there is no evidence Mayo has autism. Many women are ‘just’ found guilty of infanticide, Mayo was found guilty of murder. Rare, I believe. So why was she? I suggest it’s because she is or appeared to be lying about a number of issues and showed awareness of what she was doing/had done rather than evidence of an imbalance of mind.

This below is an excerpt from the following interesting paper:

Denial of pregnancy and neonaticide: A historical overview and case report
Sara Sablone MD, Anna Margari MD, Francesco Introna MD, Roberto Catanesi MD, Gabriele Mandarelli MD, PhD
First published: 22 January 2023
https://doi.org/10.1111/1556-4029.15202

Neonaticide is not usually associated with a diagnosis of mental illness, as most of the women who commit neonaticide do not have long-term mental disorders 21, 36].

However, these women often experience abnormal mental functioning during their pregnancies. Denial of pregnancy often precedes neonaticide 21].

At the conclusion of the DoP, specific features could be observed in labors and deliveries that preceded a neonaticide. Most women experience labor and delivery alone, silently, followed by panic or exhaustion 36].

Intense cramping and stomach pains are misinterpreted. For instance, a woman could interpret abdominal symptoms as a need to defecate 39].

The experience of childbirth can be experienced as if happening to someone else 22].

Moreover, many report minimal pain during labor and delivery 22].

Neuropsychiatric symptoms that can arise during delivery and immediately after its completion are intermittent amnesia, dissociative symptoms, and psychotic symptoms, such as hallucination 22].

A state of mental confusion is also possible, possibly rendering the woman unable to take appropriate action 36].

These symptoms are distinctive in that they are only ever temporarily present during pregnancy and birth. Reality testing continues during pregnancy, so when the reality is again tolerable – for example, once the infant is dead – the woman could experience a “rapid reintegration” 21].

“Diagnosis”
“Interestingly, in one study, almost 4 of every 10 women with denial had seen a doctor with symptoms such as nausea or abdominal pain, but without being diagnosed as pregnant. Thus the possibility of such a condition should be entertained in all women in the reproductive age with symptoms suggestive of pregnancy - irrespective of their protests that they are not pregnant”.
https://www.news-medical.net/health/Pregnancy-Denial.aspx

BreatheandFocus . Today 9:51
And whether it was a nurse or a GP, no concerns were raised about her mental health. Every teen knows questions like ‘are you sexually active’ doesn’t mean at that exact moment. Mayo chose to mis-answer this question.

”Every teen knows ….”
”Mayo chose to mis-answer…..”

I do not accept what you are saying.

For a start to say “ Every…” will inevitably be incorrect for some.

“Chose to mis-answer” How can anyone know that?

In a health care setting, with short questions and answers, not every patient manages to say or explain enough - something I know I for one have experienced. That’s why even for adults people say ‘take a friend’. She said maybe she’d have been able to say more if the appointment had gone differently.

Also, some people’s minds take all speech literally, for example as here, answering that she was not sexually active meaning not sexually active at this time.
(She had hardly been in a long term relationship).

We do not know if she had any autistic traits but, if so, this literalism would be especially par for the course.

Apart from these considerations, if Paris, a child, was psychologically suppressing or denying her pregnancy, then saying she ‘chose to mis- answer’ is an inappropriate description.

As for GP or Nurse, would that either had been more pro-active. Maybe, some lessons ought to be learned.

TBC - dispatch the baby during pregnancy.

Keep in mind too that many doctors don’t or feel they cannot diagnose psychosis until adulthood so most children are simply monitored to see if the vivid childhood imagination is simply lingering or if they are experiencing actual delusions and hallucinations. This is why the usual age for diagnosis with bipolar or schizophrenia is in ones’s 20s

Teens might not be officially labelled as bipolar or with schizophrenia in their teens, but it’s a common age for both those things to start, and there are some obvious signs not just “a vivid childhood imagination” - in a 14yr old! Bipolar can be spotted by school staff - or, rather, the symptoms of it.

But back to Mayo: so most people with that have pre-existing mental illness but Mayo just happens to be one who didn’t? She just happened to misunderstand an obvious question from a medical professional?

Don’t get me wrong - I feel sorry for her. It sounds like she wasn’t happy before becoming pregnant, and she’s now been given a substantial prison sentence. She was young. She made poor decisions. But I feel most sympathy for Stanley. His death was completely needless. I do blame the HCP who didn’t have the wit to do a pregnancy test, but Mayo lied - and yes, I think it was deliberate lying. Perhaps she hoped she’d miscarry, perhaps she planned to dispatch the baby some way herself - who knows?

And whether it was a nurse or a GP, no concerns were raised about her mental health. Every teen knows questions like ‘are you sexually active’ doesn’t mean at that exact moment. Mayo chose to mis-answer this question.

On the last thread many women who suffer from psychosis spoke of how they masked their symptoms when around healthcare professionals and family. And as for the “are you sexually active” question from what I understand she was asked this when she was some 4-5mos pregnant and she hadn’t had sex for a few months. So I think that question is vague enough for an underage 14yr old to think, no, I’m not currently sexually active because I haven’t had sex for months.

I don’t agree it’s certain that Mayo “chose to mis-answer” the question. It is possible she did, but that is not the only possibility. It is also possible she was telling the truth.

I would be wary of “every teen” knows x,y,z type statements about 14yr old girls to be honest. It was probably the first time she’d been asked that question.

Yes the psychotic type is linked to women who have already shown psychotic symptoms. But the verbiage states that they “tend to” have this history, so it’s not exclusive to women with a history of psychosis. The average age of first baby is now in one’s 30s and so that is representative of adult women having babies moreso than an underage child.

Keep in mind too that many doctors don’t or feel they cannot diagnose psychosis until adulthood so most children are simply monitored to see if the vivid childhood imagination is simply lingering or if they are experiencing actual delusions and hallucinations. This is why the usual age for diagnosis with bipolar or schizophrenia is in ones’s 20s.

Mayo was 14 and had just turned 15 at the birth. So you would not expect there to be any recorded sign of bipolar or schizophrenia in any child that age.

She didn’t need to be schizophrenic or bipolar to be found guilty of Infanticide

@ScrollingLeaves I know that. My reference to those conditions was because of what AP5Diva said earlier in this thread:

This is a good question and actually oscillating between open acknowledgement of your pregnancy and complete denial is a known symptom of pregnancy denial- the psychotic subtype. This subtype is the one where there is also a high risk of unassisted delivery and of neonaticide (killing the baby in the first 24hrs of life) by violent means. Mayo’s actions fit this to a tee
“Those with psychotic denial tend to be chronically mentally ill (e.g. schizophrenia, bipolar disorder) and remain psychotic throughout pregnancy They may experience physical symptoms of pregnancy, but contribute these to other delusional causes. They may oscillate between open acknowledgement and emphatic denial of their pregnancy. Those with non-psychotic denial have no primary psychotic illness. They have otherwise intact reality testing and often reconstitute after delivery”

Diva said that Mayo fitted the psychotic type, and the psychotic type is linked with chronic mental illness eg schizophrenia and bipolar. That’s why I mentioned them. There was/is no sign Mayo had either of these or anything similar.

And whether it was a nurse or a GP, no concerns were raised about her mental health. Every teen knows questions like ‘are you sexually active’ doesn’t mean at that exact moment. Mayo chose to mis-answer this question.

Sorry, posted too soon:

“How would it have been spotted and by whom? She had no prenatal care”
was quoting AP5Diva.

This part was
posted by BreatheandFocus Today 13:14
But she did see a GP during her pregnancy. You quoted the bit about bipolar and schizophrenia earlier. There’s no evidence she had either of those. No-one in her family (and her family wasn’t just her mum) or at school or amongst her friends noticed anything.

How would it have been spotted and by whom? She had no prenatal care

But she did see a GP during her pregnancy. You quoted the bit about bipolar and schizophrenia earlier. There’s no evidence she had either of those. No-one in her family (and her family wasn’t just her mum) or at school or amongst her friends noticed anything.

This from the Guardian said she saw a nurse rather than a GP.

The nurse knew her symptoms could mean pregnancy as she asked if she had been sexually active, but never asked her a follow up question of, “have you ever been sexually active in the last x months?”, or had her a tested as a precaution. So the nurse was taken in by her refusing to be realistic that she really might be pregnant and she carried on with her denial.

She didn’t need to be schizophrenic or bipolar to be found guilty of Infanticide.

She slept with Stanley’s father “once or twice” in the summer of 2018. Asked why he hadn’t worn a condom, Paris said: “He told me he didn’t like it. I wanted him to like me so would do whatever he wanted to keep him happy.”

She became pregnant and began to put on weight, suffering bouts of sickness and abdominal and back pain. Worried about the reaction she would get at home, she tried to convince herself she couldn’t be pregnant and denied it if anyone asked.

Her brother, George, noticed she had put on weight but put it down to the family being “big boned”. At school she kept on doing PE and dancing, wearing baggy clothes to hide her weight gain.
In October 2018, Paris went to see a nurse practitioner about her aches and pains. The nurse asked if she was sexually active. Paris replied she wasn’t, which was true at that precise time and her pregnancy wasn’t noticed.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/trial-teenager-paris-mayo-guilty-killing-newborn-tragic-troubling

How would it have been spotted and by whom? She had no prenatal care

But she did see a GP during her pregnancy. You quoted the bit about bipolar and schizophrenia earlier. There’s no evidence she had either of those. No-one in her family (and her family wasn’t just her mum) or at school or amongst her friends noticed anything.

The whole thing is utterly horrific and tragic , but to me at 15 she's vulnerable herself. She's had absolutely zero maternity care so who knows what her mental state has been during the pregnancy, she obviously felt that her circumstances were such she couldn't tell anyone about the pregnancy so there's a question there over her support networks and the stability of her circumstances and I agree with pps where we've no idea if she's been affected by ppp or ppd or if her hormones have affected her pre-birth since she wasn't receiving any healthcare. She was a child herself, obviously feeling completely alone and at 15 brain development isn't at capacity particularly in decision making areas and to me the whole situation screams vulnerable. We've no real information on the circumstance of the pregnancy either.

Regarding what you had said here BreatheandFocus
However, surely if Mayo was psychotic, that would have been spotted either shortly before or shortly after the birth.”

Apart from AP5Diva’s reply, Today 19:10…
How would it have been spotted and by whom? She had no prenatal care. On the other thread there were mothers who had psychosis during pregnancy and hid it, we also posted blogs by older women who had psychosis and hid it- then later admitted to it weeks after the birth. Her own mother didn’t even notice she was pregnant, so how would her mother also notice that she was in denial if she didn’t know her daughter was pregnant?

Interestingly, the morning after the birth, when the police took her to the hospital and Mayo was examined by a pediatrician who noted in their observations that Mayo “appeared to be in denial about her pregnancy and about harming her baby.” It’s these notes that Dr Dawson references along with his assessment in the trial.

…..looking at the law about infanticide:

(1)Where a woman by any wilful act or omission causes the death of her child being a child under the age of twelve months, but at the time of the act or omission the balance of her mind was disturbed by reason of her not having fully recovered from the effect of giving birth to the child or by reason of the effect of lactation consequent upon the birth of the child, then, [F1if] the circumstances were such that but for this Act the offence would have amounted to murder [F2or manslaughter], she shall be guilty of felony, to wit of infanticide, and may for such offence be dealt with and punished as if she had been guilty of the offence of manslaughter of the child.

The key phrase here is

” but at the time of the act or omission the balance of her mind was disturbed by reason of her not having fully recovered from the effect of giving birth to the child or by reason of the effect lactation consequent upon the birth of the child …”

The law simply refers to the balance of the mind [being] disturbed after giving birth. There is no requirement for evidence of psychosis specifically.

This article by Victoria Smith is about the case.

Spreading the Sympathy
Victoria Smith

The Critic Magazine
June 30 2023

thecritic.co.uk/spreading-the-sympathy/

@BreatheAndFocus
”Thank you, and thank you for your explanation. I was interested to read that the denial could be oscillating. However, surely if Mayo was psychotic, that would have been spotted either shortly before or shortly after the birth.”

How would it have been spotted and by whom? She had no prenatal care. On the other thread there were mothers who had psychosis during pregnancy and hid it, we also posted blogs by older women who had psychosis and hid it- then later admitted to it weeks after the birth. Her own mother didn’t even notice she was pregnant, so how would her mother also notice that she was in denial if she didn’t know her daughter was pregnant?

Interestingly, the morning after the birth, when the police took her to the hospital and Mayo was examined by a pediatrician who noted in their observations that Mayo “appeared to be in denial about her pregnancy and about harming her baby.” It’s these notes that Dr Dawson references along with his assessment in the trial.

I agree BreatheandFocus that if only the GP had done pregnancy test none of this would have happened. I don’t blame the GP, but in one of the research papers about pregnancy denial and its dangers I think I remember one suggesting that doctors should use them more routinely as a precaution.

beattieedny · Today 15:45
I don't know why this case is controversial at all. Sometimes people do evil things. Some people actually are evil, although this girl clearly isn't. She was let down but her baby was even more let down by her. She killed him in a horrific manner. The judge was fair in his summing up and sentencing. Stop this nonsense, trying to justify murder. She's been shown mercy within the available guidelines.

The reason for this thread was never to justify the killing of the baby, but you seem to have misunderstood. The thread is very far on now to try to start again with an explanation but if you have time you could read the thread, or look through the links in it to articles about this case and the crime ‘Infanticide’, and also ‘Pregnancy denial’.

I don't know why this case is controversial at all. Sometimes people do evil things. Some people actually are evil, although this girl clearly isn't. She was let down but her baby was even more let down by her. She killed him in a horrific manner. The judge was fair in his summing up and sentencing. Stop this nonsense, trying to justify murder. She's been shown mercy within the available guidelines.

I agree that it’s all interpretation. I hope there was more clarity in the trial. The questions from Mayo’s sister, as written in the press, can be understood in various ways. We’ll have to politely disagree.

Another thing I noticed in the press reports was that Mayo visited her GP when pregnant. The GP is reported as having asked her if she was having sex. Mayo answered No. When later questioned about this she said that that was because she’d misunderstood the question and thought it meant ‘was she having sex at this time’ so she said No because she wasn’t having sex at that precise time. That just seems a strange excuse/explanation to me, and I keep coming back to it.

I also don’t understand why the GP didn’t automatically do a pregnancy test. If the GP had, it would have been a very different story.

BreatheAndFocus · Yesterday 20:57

Thanks for your explanation too. It is all complicated and there are so many media reports with varying detail.

You say,
They are two different questions about two different times - why didn’t she tell her mum about the pregnancy, and would she have got her mum if the baby hadn’t been ‘stillborn’.

I see the point you are making, but personally think that is not clear.

In my opinion the two questions posed by Paris’s half-sister when she was visiting Paris on the ward, and overheard and noted by the policeman Mr Thomas, and asked during the one conversation/hospital visit are more interdependent than your interpretation would seem to suggest.

Mr Thomas also recounted notes he made of another earlier conversation that Mayo, in her ward bed, had had when her half-sister asked:

“Why didn’t you tell mum?”

^Paris is said to have replied:

Paris “She’s got a lot going on with Dad.”

The jury previously heard Mayo’s father, Patrick Mayo, had serious health problems, was having home dialysis in an upstairs room assisted by Mayo’s mother on the night of the birth, and had died 10 days after the events unfolded.

Mr Thomas also recorded Mayo’s half-sister asking:

“If it had been moving, would you have got mum?”

Paris was “recorded as nodding”,

So with,

‘Why didn’t you tell Mum’? And, ‘If it had been moving, would you have got Mum ?’

the first question relates to why she didn’t tell her mum she was in labour just before the baby was born, or at least when he had just been born, and that is why she went on to ask if she would have told her mother if the baby had been moving.

I agree though that the way it had been reported it is not altogether clear especially as this was not a recording.

The main issue though as AP5Diva and others have pointed out is that denial of pregnancy does not necessarily mean a person never thought at any point they might be pregnant but that they suppress thinking about it and blanked it out.

Dr Dawson who attended Paris on the ward believed that Paris had been in denial (according to the policeman taking notes.)