Should threads be moved out of here as well as in?

@DeanElderberry Thanks. Admit that sounds very odd. And did anyone point out this strange "co-incidence" and did MNHQ have a view?

(I think I saw Disney in the title and just thought it must be one of those sponsored links that pop up, so never lookd)

The Disney thread had a lot of posters who seemed oddly different in tone from the FWR regulars (they had no interest in feminism or women's issues) a few of whom were rather exercised at some of the Disney cartoon remakes featuring characters whose skin was dark when it used to be light. Which did seem a strange and distinctly iffy thing to get upset about, particularly in the light of the woke/broke comment.

There was no discussion of the general issue of the original streaming model no longer being profitable for anyone, Disney included, and, for some reason, an egregious misrepresentation of the 'kiss' between Kirk and Uhura in Star Trek TOS (that was the only thing I felt moved to comment on).

Then two days later a thread was started in Site Stuff to condemn FWR discussions and demand they be put under closer scrutiny because they are racist and extremely right wing, with members who were flung off the Telegraph forums for being too extreme. No links were supplied to any of that, but the Disney thread was mentioned.

There are steady waves of attack, all focused on trying to stop women talking about this stuff. It's never very subtle, like the 'Oh I'm GC as they come but' gambit. And now shouting 'transphobe' doesn't have the power it did, the apparent new thing seems to be

1. Anything the poster doesn't like hearing is extremist far right (despite the fact this doesn't really exist in the UK and is a USA boogey man import)

2. Any evidence that the poster dislikes or finds unhelpful is you having been fed propaganda by the far right extremist boogey man, and it definitely never happened.

3. On being provided with evidence - in one case video evidence demonstrating that the poster was apparently now claiming that Stonewall was headed by a far right extremist boogey man infiltrator, I particularly enjoyed that bit - they look blankly through the evidence and go on repeating the mantra. I'm not sure why. It's all a bit 'he thrusts his fists against the post and still insists he sees the ghost', it's less convincing that they're right than that they may be a sandwich short on the picnic.

4. FWR is FULL of far right extremist infiltrators here to wickedly convince women that their rights are under attack. I would LOVE to know how we spot them and what the user names of these people are, and how they're coming up with the fantastic evidence, but if Nancy Kelley is one then wow these spies are good. <Looks suspiciously at Datun and Arabella.>

5. Everybody and everything is homophobic and racist. But only what they say is homophobic and racist, anything you think is them being homophobic or racist is an indicator of you being a far right spy boogeyman bad person who doesn't exist. Or something.

Smile and nod. Smile and nod. They only ever play the one with the ball.

Seriously I cant believe we are talking about this again.

Perhaps those speculating about motives etc., are part of the problem.

I never saw the Disney thread so have no idea what that was about.

But the one about the bedroom and use of the word master was totally hijacked by nutters who seem to have no idea that master implies male, and the OP was objecting to that. And it was nothing to do with racism, expect by those who had failed to grasp what the point of the post was.

Those who are ruining threads are those who presume they know the motives of other posters.

And it is nobodies business to tell anyone where they should or should not post.

And please remember that the splitting of what was FWR was a reactionary move by mumsnet in response to complaints that talking about trans issues was alienating so please do not on any account collude with that ahistorical anti feminist notion.

Sex and gender, still by its URL is about FWR. That is because the basis of women's discrimination and oppression is because of our sex. So all issues relating to women rights are from the basis of sex.

This board would function much better if those who dont understand why someone wants to start a thread on a certain issue just dont comment.

If you think a thread is just a ploy to push a right wing narrative DONT join in. What better way to expose it is a false flag than to leave it with a few overtly goady posts.

And if it seems like that aren't so many contributing is because whilst FWR gives many the opportunity to talk about and ask things that other forums dont allow, that in itself means the forum never as a whole moves forward.

And there is absolutely no doubt that FWR have helped women who have turned to it as a last resort when facing a crisis at work or at home.

But on the other hand it does mean that issues never get beyond a sort of outraged reaction to yet another encroachment on women's rights.

If anyone remembers a while ago some long time contributors to FWR were talking about setting up a community where issues could be discussed, but more importantly built on. ie creating a platform where you could log information and then build on it, and through that move things forward. More often than not topics on FWR get repsonses that are ones that have been said many, many times before. But we have no way of making that into a searchable archive.

And I really wouldn't worry about somehow people being manipulated into being seenas right wing and / or racist. This is being done off mumsnet and very effectively, as had been done to KJK.

Just dont respond to goady threads. Leave them to whither away.

As I said I cant understand how anyone would presume to be the one to get threads moved. It isn't your forum anymore than it is mine.

PS what was the Disney thread about?

As a new joiner to the board (I felt compelled to join after the BC trans policy announcement), I’ve been surprised at a small number of posts (the Disney one in particular) which appear to be just general ‘anti-woke’ verging into racism. It does almost look like sabotage to try and get the board shut down.

The “go woke go broke” title really struck a bell as this is a phrase used by people who are attacking Fender for highlighting black and female sponsored artists. I hadn’t heard it in a non-racist context.

That was an extremely odd thread and I couldn’t get my head around what it was doing in Feminism: S&G…

The Disney one was also interesting in how differently posters interpreted the highly ambiguous OP. Lots of angry assumptions about what the OP was saying and generated some very interesting debates. Originally I gave up on the thread as it was hard to follow because of wildly different tangents. After rereading (some) it, there were some inappropriate posts, others called those out, some not very well expressed sentiments. Most posters were unfamiliar user names, very few FWR regulars.

Reading it left me reflecting even more on the nature of racism so was illuminating, BUT…it probably should’ve been moved from FWR and those decisions probably shouldn’t be solely up to an OP. There are serious attempts to shut down these debates. If you throw enough mud, some will stick. FWR was called a ‘hate group’ at one point. Just as women had to work twice as hard as men to be thought of as half as good, it feels FWR has to be twice as careful as any other MN board.

I agree that something feels different and that (even taking name changes into account) there have been a higher number of poster names I don't recognise lately, although I don't think the second is necessarily a bad thing - as far as I'm concerned, the more people there are talking about this the better. My guess is that there are a few things going on:

Some of our monitors realising they're losing control of the narrative, and panicking. This has been predicted for a long time and now we're living it.

As the subject attracts more coverage, new posters arriving from other boards.
I think it's worth remembering that the default position on much of Mumsnet is generally left of centre, and that it must be quite a culture shock to land here and find posters from the left and right having cordial conversations, along with lots of disenchanted Labour voters (me!) and links to the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Spectator etc. Yes, some 'you're so all right wing' protests might be coming from a bad faith position but I'd wager some of them are just used to more tribal thinking and are genuinely taken aback by what they see.

Some regular posters just taking a break for various reasons. I'm mainly posting on threads about the Labour Party at the moment because I've got a big decision to make about how I vote next year and I'm focusing on that.

I think the AI / chatgpt point is a good one. I hadn't really thought about that.

Also there's been a change of tone on other boards too. Style and Beauty, for example, is becoming unrecognisable for reasons I haven't entirely worked out.

So like I've said, I think there's more than one thing going on.

I'm still not sure about the op's proposal though. I understand the thinking but I'm uneasy about it. It feels like fighting bad faith with more bad faith.

Yep.

"I start to get suspicious that there’s a close down FWR campaign under way."

I agree. The only thing I would add, it is just another one from a slightly different direction.

"tldr version: I’m suspicious!"

You are not alone.

@Helleofabore

'I am GC but ...' or 'I used to post here but it is now .....'
My observation is that the “I’m as GC as they come but…” catchphrase disappeared once it was spotted as a pattern (due to overuse) and regularly challenged.

What I don't really see after years of intensively being on this board is that there is actually a 'drift' of the majority to be right wing.
I don’t disagree. I’m not claiming that there’s a ‘drift to the right’. (Not least because that wouldn’t be the first set of labels I would apply to people anyway.) I generally look at posts / posters / people through a lens of: supports women’s rights / doesn’t support women’s rights, has thought it through / hasn’t thought it through, makes accurate points / makes false claims. And the left / right thing is unhelpful when a lot of posters seem to be applying a US viewpoint to the UK. I do pay attention to the vote Labour / Tory / other party discussions as they are more relevant to the UK. As an example I was really interested in what Miriam Cates had to say - until I read some statements she’d made and thought: uh oh, she appears to be channelling Serena Joy.

Having said all that, I’ve become suspicious of late that we might be in the foothills of a ‘but you women will be so much happier back in your lovely kitchens with your lovely kid’ campaign.

I wasn't sure though whether you felt the general political alignment was drifting or whether you were commenting on the change.

It’s not so much that I feel the general political alignment is drifting, more that I’ve started feeling like there might be some attempts at manipulation going on here. And that’s not a ‘you lot are being manipulated you silly things’ line, that’s me thinking: hang on, am I being manipulated? Is this a campaign?

And alongside that when I see threads in Site Stuff saying MN needs to keep an eye on fwr, at around the same time that a ‘not on brand for FWR’ thread is posted here or moved her, I start to get suspicious that there’s a close down FWR campaign under way.

tldr version: I’m suspicious!

I think the only remedy for the "you are right-wing" bs, is to look at arguments on their merit, and ignore whether they are supposed to be left or right wing.

One of the really interesting results of gender ideology, and some other id pol issues, is that you have more people of a conservative mindset who have found some good ideas in certain leftist writers or ideas or sources. And people generally on the left who have become more aware of conservative or right wing ideas. And both have realized that there is some intellectual merit there.

This is not a bad thing despite upsetting those who are wedded to political tribalism.

I think that many regulars have become exhausted and worn down and I know quite a few who have taken breaks and only occasionally come on now. So you are quite right about that.

However, there are also many name changes from those who regularly name change too, of course.

I agree that the accusations do seem to have changed. It was noted a few months ago just how many of those accusatory posters used the phrase 'I am GC but ...' or 'I used to post here but it is now .....' How many of those are genuine, well, who knows. Was that a new tactic?

Now I think the 'you are all right wing' has come back combined with other phrases. Some of these are posters who have been pushing that same line for months, if not years. The reason I questioned you is that now there seems to have been a large increase in the articles published by media that many associate, rightly or wrongly, with right wing.

Then they seem to drift that to 'far right wing'. I assume for further polarisation.

So, I believe that has contributed to people's arguments of 'you are all influenced by far right media'. What I don't really see after years of intensively being on this board is that there is actually a 'drift' of the majority to be right wing. Despite posters declaring it to be so.

It is a tactic. It is not new. But now, due to particular media being some of the only ones publishing articles, and those articles being shared here, it has become leverage for those posters. Those posters attempt to convince and silence others who are perhaps not as informed or certain about their opinions.

Now, I personally believe in reading or consuming media as widely as possible. I know that some others, maybe many others, believe that too. I take all individual content as it is rather than shunning it for whatever the overall political views of the outlet is. I evaluate it and make up my own mind.

I am not doing anything unusual, I actually assume it is more the norm than the 'I won't read it because it published by a 'bad' media outlet'.

However, there is purists who are becoming louder about this on these threads. Maybe that is what we are seeing. I wasn't sure though whether you felt the general political alignment was drifting or whether you were commenting on the change.

Thank you for answering.

@hellebore

I agree that there has always been robust left v right debate. And that applies to MN as a whole, not just FWR. (If you ever spent any time on the Brexit threads.)

I think there has been a change to that in recent months, probably this year.

Say about a year ago, there were a lot of “you’re all right wing bigots, look who you are associating with”, basically: you’re nasty, be kind! All very predictable stuff. And generally guilt by association type stuff.

That still happens; but there’s a new element, and to me if feels more….. concerted.

I often wonder whether there’s an AI / chatgpt element to it, because at times of feels a bit Bot Farm. Which is entirely plausible - given the size and profile of mumsnet, it’s going to be an obvious target for trialling your ChatBots. (And it’s also plausible because it’s actually happened on here previously - remember we did have an actual Bot Farm, but in the form of a tag-teaming group of humans, who were exposed when they accidentally posted their behind the scenes stuff in the thread. Everyone found it hugely entertaining at the time.)

There are times when I wonder whether there are scripts being tested out on us.

A few weeks back, someone posted a “where are the regulars?” thread; and I’d been thinking that myself for a while and wondering what was going on.

Since then, in addition to feeling like some regulars are MIA, it also feels like a new ‘discourse’ has been / is being introduced.

To be clear, this isn’t me doing an “you’re all trolls!!!” accusation. Clearly there are a lot of genuine posters on here. And we all know that there have always been In Bad Faith posters on here. The feeling that I’ve been getting over recent weeks / months is that there’s been a change in the nature of the In Bad Faith posters.

But I may be wrong of course.

It’s just a feeling. But it’s based on paying attention to patterns / changing patterns.

What do you think?

No, but they do bring Australian style.....I guess after Posie went down under a few Aussies and New Zealanders appeared on here too.

Ummmm… I don’t think Australian posters don’t bring ‘American Style’ politicking with them.

Putting aside any deliberately provocative / bad faith threads started to smear FWR as right wing...I have argued from day one that it is fallacious* to believe there are any feminist threads which don't hinge on sex or gender, because as women we are discriminated against on the basis of our sex, and gender is one of the mechanisms by which that discrimination is enacted.

*I'm not sure if that is the exact word I want but menopause brain fog is hitting me hard today.

I've always hated disney because I think it is, in large part, responsible for the reproduction of heavily gendered streotypes.

What was it about the Disney thread that was so inappropriate do you think?
Was it not based on DeSantis having taken them on for their LGBTQ+ portrayals, or was it something else?

I think we may need to bear i mind that this forum is now quite well known, as it is frequently mentioned in media reports. This alone will draw people in to see what it is all about, including many with axes to grind; and those that think they can take the nasty terfs on, and so on.

Also, there seems to be an increase in the number of American and Australian posters in recent times - and they naturally bring with them American style politicking.

I would normally be against this as I believe that on balance and regardless of intention, any thread that brings fresh traffic to this board normally does more good than harm.

That said I've got eyes in my head and I can see where you're coming from.

So errmm.... I'll need to think about it.

LoobiJee

There has been some very robust discussion about left wing vs right wing on FWR. Do you mean though that you believe that the board is drifting to the 'right' as some posters have attempted to portray? Or are you referring to the constant barrage of posters telling us that even reading a particular paper is 'coercing' feminists to the far right as I was told yesterday, when that is such a weak and almost tribal argument?

Is it a symptom of the current trend of which media is publishing content?