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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

PCOS and devastated to be called intersex

232 replies

kbana · 28/06/2023 19:11

I’m typing this through tears but just need to write it down to try and get it out of my head. Sorry if it seems long or disjointed but I’m in a bit of a state.

I hold GC views but keep these to myself as I feel afraid to speak out in case I’m called a bigot/TERF. I don’t believe that a man can become a woman but I would use people’s chosen pronouns to be polite.

I feel strongly that male-bodied people should not be able to access female spaces (including changing rooms and toilets). One of my very good friends from my university days is extremely supportive of trans rights and was ranting to me this afternoon about women’s toilets being for all women and not just females. I would normally ignore these comments to avoid arguments as she can get very heated. This time though I decided to explain (calmly and reasonably) why I didn’t agree.

My friend said that she found it astonishing that I would take that position “when many people would consider me intersex” and pointed out that I never question my own right to use the women’s loos. I asked her what she meant and she said that because I have PCOS, most TRAs and some doctors would not call me female and would include me in the intersex category. She said that I should have more sympathy for people with gender dysphoria because like them, I try to change my body to fit with my belief that I am female by taking medication to give me periods and reduce hair growth.

I tried to argue that there are thousands of women with PCOS and that they all have XX chromosomes and are female. I also pointed out that the medication is to bring back my periods, which I would have biologically if it wasn’t for my hormonal imbalance. She just kept arguing despite seeing that I was getting tearful and said that if the thousands of women with PCOS were correctly considered intersex, it would break the idea that intersex is an extremely rare group. She said that society avoids categorising PCOS as intersex to maintain the idea of two fixed sexes and encourages people with PCOS to medicate so that they fit better into the “female binary”.

I was so upset to have my sex questioned and told her so, but she just replied that is how trans people feel. Although she may have wanted to hurt me because of my GC view, she genuinely seemed to think that having PCOS means I am intersex and that my treatment for PCOS is basically to reduce my gender dysphoria so that I feel more female.

I’m not really sure what I’m asking for here but I hoped that MNers on this topic who are better informed than me can help me articulate why her view of PCOS as intersex is wrong and reassure me that I correct in believing that I am fully female (I can’t believe I even had to write that last bit). I am pretty sure that our friendship is over so I doubt I’ll have this argument with her again but it would still help me to know exactly why her thinking is wrong.

I am devastated to have lost her friendship and to have been made to feel less than female because of my health condition. I also don’t understand why she is so supportive of trans people choosing their gender and yet wants to tell me which category I’m really in. It is offensive and upsetting.

If you got to the end of this, thank you for reading. I hope I don’t sound like I’ve made this is up -frankly, I find it hard to believe too. The most upsetting part is that even though I am almost convinced she is wrong, it has still planted a seed of doubt because it plays on my insecurities about being hairier etc than most other women.

Thank you for any advice.

OP posts:
crostini · 28/06/2023 20:13

Your friend is vile and stupid.

You are a woman. Please don't listen to her.

flimsywhimsy · 28/06/2023 20:13

I sincerely hope that you stop subjecting yourself to this so-called friend. She is NOT a friend. Even if she's idiotic enough to believe what she was saying, any decent person wouldn't continue to argue the point with someone who was obviously upset and feeling attacked. Normal people wouldn't do that to someone they don't like, much less a friend!

Mumtothreegirlies · 28/06/2023 20:13

Pcos effects FEMALES with XX chromosomes and ovaries. your friend is a nut job

LoobiJee · 28/06/2023 20:13

MsFogi · 28/06/2023 19:53

Hmm by that logic I would argue that your 'friend' is not alive/conscious given that her brain has clearly ceased to function.
Seriously, do not give it another thought and remember this person is not a 'friend'.

Brilliant. 😅

Bluelagoon16 · 28/06/2023 20:13

She's as thick as a whale omelette, and also a hypocrite for telling you how to perceive yourself (which she's factually wrong about) whilst berating you that others can identify however they want:
Block and ignore

WunWun · 28/06/2023 20:12

Fucking hell. I hope you never speak to her again!

HawdMeBack · 28/06/2023 20:12

Wasabiaddiction · 28/06/2023 19:26

What an idiot.

I had PCOS. But I guess that since I am menopausal, I no longer have PCOS.

Does that mean that I was once intersex but am not no longer intersex!

You will always have PCOS, menopause doesn't change that. The hormone imbalance doesn't rectify itself when you stop producing eggs.

JoodyBlue · 28/06/2023 20:09

And PCOS is reasonably common among women. Also, I was told when attending a scan for ovarian cysts that they are really really common among women, most of whom don't realise as they self resolve and recur all the time. Not sure if that helps, but PCOS is a female only condition.

Devonshiregal · 28/06/2023 20:07

This reply has been deleted

Withdrawn at poster's request

Why is is not flagged up? Like how is it just ignored when trans lot use intersex as an argument? This is so annoying

ModestMoon · 28/06/2023 20:05

Your friend is awful. No friend would reduce another friends to tears over questioning their medical condition and sex.

OP you are a woman through and through. If your friend had half a brain she would realise that having a medical condition that only affects women is only possible if you are a woman.

JoodyBlue · 28/06/2023 20:05

Flowers That's upsetting to read. But actually, I don't think the person you are describing is very nice really. She would sacrifice your feelings to make a political point. You say yourself, you would be polite, despite your (entirely sensible and logical) GC views. I would actually feel quite calm about walking away from this relationship. You don't need it. But well done for speaking from your corner. Of course you are a woman, of that there is only doubt by people who really cannot think clearly about facts. I would call them fuckwits, but I can't imagine you would be that rude 😄

LakeTiticaca · 28/06/2023 20:02

You have ovaries. How are you not a woman?
Your "friend" is batshit

DSDaisy · 28/06/2023 20:01

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

Bentoforthehorde · 28/06/2023 20:00

Hah! I have PCOS. Never in my life heard that I'm intersex! I was diagnosed with an internal scan (as in Giant wand scanner in my vagina) 20 years ago so maybe they just forgot to mention it one all the new terminology came in.
Better let my husband and kids know 🤔
I'm sorry your friend was a twat and upset you.
Well this has been a revelation 🤣

stayingaliveisawayoflife · 28/06/2023 19:58

I have PCOS. If I don't sort it I have a better beard than my husband! I also don't wear make up, only wear trousers and have quite a deep speaking voice. I am still all woman! I can multitask and know how to clean toilets!

RufustheSpecuIatingreindeer · 28/06/2023 19:56

As many others have said she is an idiot

you are well shot of her

Devonshiregal · 28/06/2023 19:55

Can someone PLEASE explain to me….if people use this ‘intersex argument’ to validate trans-ism, why doesn’t everyone associating as the opposite gender take genetic test to show whether or.l not they are, in fact, intersex?

if 100 trans people all signed up for genetic testing and discovered they were actually intersex, then surely the argument would be laid to rest - we would all have to accept that they clearly were born with muddled sex and therefore their choice to transition is validated.

of course, if they all turned out to not be intersex…well then

MsFogi · 28/06/2023 19:53

Hmm by that logic I would argue that your 'friend' is not alive/conscious given that her brain has clearly ceased to function.
Seriously, do not give it another thought and remember this person is not a 'friend'.

ConfusedNoMore · 28/06/2023 19:52

I have felt for a long time that there is a correlation between my experience of domestic abuse (emotional, mental, financial, sexual, coercive control) and the tra movement. The twisting of facts when it's so obscenely obviously untrue which then makes you doubt reality. Yeah, cruel, narcissist and abusive behaviour from your 'friend'.

You're best off not having people like that around you @kbana . Flowers

PatatiPatatras · 28/06/2023 19:51

You need ovaries to be able to suffer from polycystic ovaries...

DarkChoc33 · 28/06/2023 19:51

OP your friend is cruel and an idiot. I have PCOS, was diagnosed with it almost 25 years ago and not once have I ever come across referred to as ‘intersex’. Not from GPs, consultants or gynaecologists who I have seen over the years. She is basically lying to you. It’s a female condition, affecting the ovaries and nothing to do with being ‘intersex’. What a horrible person she is.

LoobiJee · 28/06/2023 19:50

Your ex-friend’s over-riding motivation in life is her tribal allegiance.

The thing that is most important to her identity and to her view of herself is her credentials with this in-group which she has chosen to be a member of.

Think of her like a member of a religious sect holding beliefs which everyone else knows are ludicrous, including dogmatic and judgemental opinions about those who are not part of the sect, and a conviction that it is acceptable to say aggressive, contemptuous, and nonsensical things to people in the “out group”, like: unbelievers will burn in hellfire for evermore, and such like.

It’s easier to spot that sort of behaviour when it’s part of religious sect membership, than in your ex-friend’s case, as religious sect behaviour has been around for a long time, whereas the particular brand of evangelism and self-righteousness which your ex-friend is displaying is relatively new. So a ‘oh gawd, here we go’ response doesn’t come as readily when confronted with your ex-friend’s behaviour as it would when confronted with someone, say, banging a tambourine in your face.

Your ex-friend has demonstrated that her “spouting absolute garbage” capability is very high, while her thinking skills are low. Her humanity, compassion and basic decency are lower still.

What your ex-friend said was deeply offensive, insulting, crass, wrong and very stupid. Oh, and did I mention wrong?

Only females can have polycystic ovary syndrome. The clue is in the name.

You’re a woman. She is someone to be avoided.

DSDaisy · 28/06/2023 19:49

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

Waitwhat23 · 28/06/2023 19:49

Firstly, your friend is using the term 'intersex' which is considered to be outdated and insulting by and to those who have a Disorder of Sexual Development.

PCOS is a endocrine disorder which affects only females. DSD's are all sex specific conditions but PCOS is not a DSD.

From differently-normal.com/author/clarecais/ -

'It is also increasingly common for people without a DSD, to identify as intersex, with even Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome being claimed as the most common intersex variation, even though most women with PCOS would never describe themselves as intersex and this is not officially recognised by any medical organisation.'

Claiming that PCOS is an intersex condition seems to come from two deeply unpleasant standpoints -

  1. It's to push the idea that sex is a spectrum. It's not. DSD conditions are being deliberately misused in order to claim that people are less female/less male. It's utter bullshit.
  1. It's the whole 'not like other girls' crap. Women who want to claim a special identity but don't feel that non - binary/trans is unique and special enough are claiming that their PCOS makes them intersex. I see it all the time on Twitter.

I really take issue with your friend saying that women with PCOS medicate to 'feel more like women'. We are women. With a female endocrine disorder.

Cornishbelle · 28/06/2023 19:48

Just one more woman here with pcos, to say sorry your friendships ended this way but honestly with views like that I would say you're best out of it.

As pp's have said, the very fact you have pcos shows you are most definitely a woman. Life has gone beyond batshit with some of this stuff, if that makes me a dinosaur bring on the bloody meteor lol