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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

PCOS and devastated to be called intersex

232 replies

kbana · 28/06/2023 19:11

I’m typing this through tears but just need to write it down to try and get it out of my head. Sorry if it seems long or disjointed but I’m in a bit of a state.

I hold GC views but keep these to myself as I feel afraid to speak out in case I’m called a bigot/TERF. I don’t believe that a man can become a woman but I would use people’s chosen pronouns to be polite.

I feel strongly that male-bodied people should not be able to access female spaces (including changing rooms and toilets). One of my very good friends from my university days is extremely supportive of trans rights and was ranting to me this afternoon about women’s toilets being for all women and not just females. I would normally ignore these comments to avoid arguments as she can get very heated. This time though I decided to explain (calmly and reasonably) why I didn’t agree.

My friend said that she found it astonishing that I would take that position “when many people would consider me intersex” and pointed out that I never question my own right to use the women’s loos. I asked her what she meant and she said that because I have PCOS, most TRAs and some doctors would not call me female and would include me in the intersex category. She said that I should have more sympathy for people with gender dysphoria because like them, I try to change my body to fit with my belief that I am female by taking medication to give me periods and reduce hair growth.

I tried to argue that there are thousands of women with PCOS and that they all have XX chromosomes and are female. I also pointed out that the medication is to bring back my periods, which I would have biologically if it wasn’t for my hormonal imbalance. She just kept arguing despite seeing that I was getting tearful and said that if the thousands of women with PCOS were correctly considered intersex, it would break the idea that intersex is an extremely rare group. She said that society avoids categorising PCOS as intersex to maintain the idea of two fixed sexes and encourages people with PCOS to medicate so that they fit better into the “female binary”.

I was so upset to have my sex questioned and told her so, but she just replied that is how trans people feel. Although she may have wanted to hurt me because of my GC view, she genuinely seemed to think that having PCOS means I am intersex and that my treatment for PCOS is basically to reduce my gender dysphoria so that I feel more female.

I’m not really sure what I’m asking for here but I hoped that MNers on this topic who are better informed than me can help me articulate why her view of PCOS as intersex is wrong and reassure me that I correct in believing that I am fully female (I can’t believe I even had to write that last bit). I am pretty sure that our friendship is over so I doubt I’ll have this argument with her again but it would still help me to know exactly why her thinking is wrong.

I am devastated to have lost her friendship and to have been made to feel less than female because of my health condition. I also don’t understand why she is so supportive of trans people choosing their gender and yet wants to tell me which category I’m really in. It is offensive and upsetting.

If you got to the end of this, thank you for reading. I hope I don’t sound like I’ve made this is up -frankly, I find it hard to believe too. The most upsetting part is that even though I am almost convinced she is wrong, it has still planted a seed of doubt because it plays on my insecurities about being hairier etc than most other women.

Thank you for any advice.

OP posts:
MargotBamborough · 29/06/2023 12:25

BodegaSushi · 29/06/2023 12:22

Oh absolutely fuck off. Intersex is now not a 'scientific' term 😂

The mental gymnastics are worthy of a medal

And they can also fuck off some more for trying to attach that label to infertility. I have never met a woman struggling with infertility who's considered herself 'intersex' Confused

Oh cool. I've had recurrent miscarriages, probably for hormonal reasons, does that make me intersex and therefore part of the rainbow gang now?

🤔

BodegaSushi · 29/06/2023 12:22

Oh absolutely fuck off. Intersex is now not a 'scientific' term 😂

The mental gymnastics are worthy of a medal

And they can also fuck off some more for trying to attach that label to infertility. I have never met a woman struggling with infertility who's considered herself 'intersex' Confused

PCOS and devastated to be called intersex
Froodwithatowel · 29/06/2023 11:47

Oh OP.

How many biological males, I wonder, have polycystic ovaries?

A big. Fat. Zero.

Your friend is an ill informed, zealot twit parroting stuff she does not understand. Flowers

Okshacky · 29/06/2023 10:51

🤣🤣🤣. What on Earth do you think a “proper woman” is if you can’t be black???? Though actually not funny.🤬

DysonSpheres · 29/06/2023 10:49

NecessaryScene · 28/06/2023 19:31

This is kind of a small-scale version of "those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities". Those who buy into this stuff will say the most mind-bogglingly offensive stuff. Sometimes justifying it on the basis of how it's "what some people think". Um, but you're the one saying it, and using it in an argument!

One of their other favourites in the same vein is about how black women don't look like proper women.

I beg your pardon about us black women now what are they saying??!!!

🤬🤬

HootyMcBooby76 · 29/06/2023 10:43

I've had this from a TRA on a forum before.
I have PCOS.

As we all know, DSDs are genetic / chromosomal conditions present at birth, not acquired endocrine conditions like PCOS.

The attempt to include things like PCOS under the DSD umbrella is their pathetic attempt to make it seems as though there is a spectrum of sex, that it is woolly and nebulous, that you can hover between male and female. Anything that blurs the sex line for them plays into their agenda.
I'm not sure why they are so obsessed with DSDs anyway, it has been clarified beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no higher incidence of DSDs in the trans population than the general population, and that figure remains steady at 0.018% of live births.

If PCOS were a DSD, you would be under the care of a genetic specialist, rather than an endocrinologist.
ONLY XX women can have PCOS, ovaries being the main requirement for the disease.

In conclusion, your "friend" has willingly hurt your feelings to pander to the utter ridiculousness of her ideology. She has gladly thrown you and your condition under the bus of her wokeness in order to appease the feelings of, ultimately, men.

Your "friend" is a fucking arsehole.

MargotBamborough · 29/06/2023 10:28

BodegaSushi · 29/06/2023 09:41

Um lol. I have PCOS. Have hair in places where it shouldn't be but manage with laser. When it was first discovered I had a higher amount of testosterone than normal and went on medication to reduce this. I haven't tested recently but the levels had stayed down for years.

I am a woman, adult human female, and have never questioned it. I've also never heard of women with PCOS being thought of as intersex?

And definitely wouldn't be 'devastated' if some idiot tried to tell me otherwise, I'd honestly look at them like they were insane.

I'm fairly sure counting women with PCOS as "intersex" is just part of the trans activist agenda to make people believe that sex isn't binary and it's "more complicated than that". (It isn't, not really.)

The general public is starting to get braver about saying, "Actually, no, this is all a bit silly. If you have a vagina you're not a man" and so some trans activists are now claiming to be "intersex" as well, to try and shut down that conversation.

I'd be willing to bet that quite a few of the trans activists now claiming to be "intersex" on the basis that they have PCOS don't even have PCOS. It's just that no one can prove whether they have it or not so we just have to take their word for it when they say they do.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 29/06/2023 10:24

I am raging on your behalf! Of course you are a woman. TRAs talk complete nonsense and so did your "friend" (not much of a friend, is she?) As other posters have said the clue with PCOS is right there in the name - PolyCystic OVARY Syndrome. Only women have ovaries. Only women get PCOS. What a silly woman she is!

You could even tell your friend it's exactly because they keep tellling people such cruel nonsense about sex and gender that you want nothing to do with TRAs. Well, only if you ever speak to her again, which I wouldn't want to.

BodegaSushi · 29/06/2023 09:41

Um lol. I have PCOS. Have hair in places where it shouldn't be but manage with laser. When it was first discovered I had a higher amount of testosterone than normal and went on medication to reduce this. I haven't tested recently but the levels had stayed down for years.

I am a woman, adult human female, and have never questioned it. I've also never heard of women with PCOS being thought of as intersex?

And definitely wouldn't be 'devastated' if some idiot tried to tell me otherwise, I'd honestly look at them like they were insane.

littleburn · 29/06/2023 09:39

OP I am so sorry your 'friend' was so vile to you. To put her ideological agenda before your feelings - and to keep pressing it when it was clear you were becoming upset - is unforgivable. Of course you are 100% a female. Sending you an unmumsnetty hug x

YouJustDoYou · 29/06/2023 09:37

Your "friend" is not only a raving lunatic but an absolute fucking moron.

Beowulfa · 29/06/2023 09:33

OP- you are a woman with a medical problem.

Your ex-friend is a moron with a logic and empathy problem.

Waitwhat23 · 29/06/2023 09:33

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Withdrawn at poster's request

This doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Waitwhat23 · 29/06/2023 09:32

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This is an excellent suggestion.

Waitwhat23 · 29/06/2023 09:32

PurpleBugz · 29/06/2023 08:34

Another message of support from me. Ovaries = woman. You are a woman.

I have PCOS. The struggle with weight, hair and fertility and lack of medical professionals giving a shit just highlighted my womanhood to me.

Can throughly agree about medical professionals not giving a flying shit. I was diagnosed 22 years ago after 4 years of being fobbed off despite having the absolutely classic symptoms of PCOS. When I was first diagnosed, I was asked 'do you know anything about it?', said no and was told to look it up. In the intervening time, I have met exactly one GP who had any knowledge of PCOS. All the rest have been less than clueless.

Given that it is a condition that affects an estimated 1 in 5 women, the lack of interest by medical professionals in learning/understanding about the condition is telling.

DeanElderberry · 29/06/2023 09:28

You should have told the silly man that even if you accepted that the calculations made by Ussher in the 17th century as correct (btw, Ussher was very clever - he'd have been thrilled by the new scientific information) that would make the world 6026 years and nine months old (ish) not 5000.

But as I say, Ussher would have thought he was an eejit.

mumda · 29/06/2023 09:26

What a cheeky twat! Tell her to fuck off and never speak to her again.

DSDaisy · 29/06/2023 09:06

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

MargotBamborough · 29/06/2023 09:04

It's really obscene that the same people who will call you a bigot for denying that a trans woman is a woman just because they were born male think it's fine to deny that a woman is a woman because of a medical condition that she has. (And that only women can have!)

Once again, if the ovaries weren't enough of a giveaway we would know who is a woman and who is not because if you are actually a woman it's OK to offend you by saying you're not really a woman, whereas if you actually are a man we must agree with you when you say you are a woman.

Topsy-turvy land.

These people are atrocious.

lieselotte · 29/06/2023 09:00

OP I've not read the full thread but I am currently reading Sharron Davies' book and she talks about "intersex" and makes clear that there is no such thing.

People are male or female, with disorders of sex development. The phrase intersex has been frowned on since 2005! Nobody is a mix of sexes, it simply doesn't exist.

PCOS is not a disorder of sex development in any event, it is a hormonal issue.

Your "friend" is clueless. If you speak to her again, I'd suggest she reads Sharron's book.

stealthbanana · 29/06/2023 08:58

arguably you are more of a woman as you have more eggs / higher ovarian reserve!

your friend is a lunatic. Sorry, it must have been upsetting - but I’d just put this in the category of ffs some people are mind bendingly stupid

iamloading · 29/06/2023 08:39

I have PCOS. Without the pill I've had about 5 natural periods in my whole life. I've also had two children. Something that only a WOMAN can do. PCOS is a bloody annoying pain in the arse. But it most certainly doesn't mean I'm not a woman!

PurpleBugz · 29/06/2023 08:34

Another message of support from me. Ovaries = woman. You are a woman.

I have PCOS. The struggle with weight, hair and fertility and lack of medical professionals giving a shit just highlighted my womanhood to me.

ResisterRex · 29/06/2023 08:34

I'm glad to read your update @kbana and that this thread has helped. I forgot these yesterday FlowersCakeBrew

I feel like this was great advice from @Alcemeg in particular:

"You haven't lost a friend.

A lunatic has detached themselves from you."

I'm going to remember it!

YetAnotherSpartacus · 29/06/2023 08:26

You are a woman. She is a cunt.