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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

PCOS and devastated to be called intersex

232 replies

kbana · 28/06/2023 19:11

I’m typing this through tears but just need to write it down to try and get it out of my head. Sorry if it seems long or disjointed but I’m in a bit of a state.

I hold GC views but keep these to myself as I feel afraid to speak out in case I’m called a bigot/TERF. I don’t believe that a man can become a woman but I would use people’s chosen pronouns to be polite.

I feel strongly that male-bodied people should not be able to access female spaces (including changing rooms and toilets). One of my very good friends from my university days is extremely supportive of trans rights and was ranting to me this afternoon about women’s toilets being for all women and not just females. I would normally ignore these comments to avoid arguments as she can get very heated. This time though I decided to explain (calmly and reasonably) why I didn’t agree.

My friend said that she found it astonishing that I would take that position “when many people would consider me intersex” and pointed out that I never question my own right to use the women’s loos. I asked her what she meant and she said that because I have PCOS, most TRAs and some doctors would not call me female and would include me in the intersex category. She said that I should have more sympathy for people with gender dysphoria because like them, I try to change my body to fit with my belief that I am female by taking medication to give me periods and reduce hair growth.

I tried to argue that there are thousands of women with PCOS and that they all have XX chromosomes and are female. I also pointed out that the medication is to bring back my periods, which I would have biologically if it wasn’t for my hormonal imbalance. She just kept arguing despite seeing that I was getting tearful and said that if the thousands of women with PCOS were correctly considered intersex, it would break the idea that intersex is an extremely rare group. She said that society avoids categorising PCOS as intersex to maintain the idea of two fixed sexes and encourages people with PCOS to medicate so that they fit better into the “female binary”.

I was so upset to have my sex questioned and told her so, but she just replied that is how trans people feel. Although she may have wanted to hurt me because of my GC view, she genuinely seemed to think that having PCOS means I am intersex and that my treatment for PCOS is basically to reduce my gender dysphoria so that I feel more female.

I’m not really sure what I’m asking for here but I hoped that MNers on this topic who are better informed than me can help me articulate why her view of PCOS as intersex is wrong and reassure me that I correct in believing that I am fully female (I can’t believe I even had to write that last bit). I am pretty sure that our friendship is over so I doubt I’ll have this argument with her again but it would still help me to know exactly why her thinking is wrong.

I am devastated to have lost her friendship and to have been made to feel less than female because of my health condition. I also don’t understand why she is so supportive of trans people choosing their gender and yet wants to tell me which category I’m really in. It is offensive and upsetting.

If you got to the end of this, thank you for reading. I hope I don’t sound like I’ve made this is up -frankly, I find it hard to believe too. The most upsetting part is that even though I am almost convinced she is wrong, it has still planted a seed of doubt because it plays on my insecurities about being hairier etc than most other women.

Thank you for any advice.

OP posts:
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Greenfishy · 04/07/2023 09:48

This is just horrendous. What on earth is happening in this world of ours.

OP you are completely and utterly female, and completely and utterly within your rights to be outraged and hurt by this.

Your friend is batshit and I would not be seeing her or contacting her again. I’m so sorry this happened to you.

PineappleRumble · 04/07/2023 09:43

Bin your 'friend' off, OP. She's not very bright.

Only women can have PCOS.

ArabeIIaScott · 04/07/2023 09:39

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 04/07/2023 07:41

I'm Catherine, Princess of Wales. Despite the fact "you are who you say you are" I've been told that if I keep trying to get into any of the royal properties I'll be arrested. Sad

Okay, then I will be Princess of Whales.

In all seriousness, though, what a daft idea it is that we 'are whatever we say we are' or want to be. Solipsist and vacuous all at once.

It's beyond belief that policy and law has been drafted on this basis.

NotBadConsidering · 04/07/2023 09:29

Maybe the OP can just identify as someone without PCOS.

Problem. Solved.

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 04/07/2023 07:41

I'm Catherine, Princess of Wales. Despite the fact "you are who you say you are" I've been told that if I keep trying to get into any of the royal properties I'll be arrested. Sad

Kucinghitam · 04/07/2023 05:52

You are all very impractical people.

I'm retirement age. Where's my pension, eh?

turbonerd · 04/07/2023 05:48

I am a humpback whale.

HootyMcBooby76 · 03/07/2023 22:30

PatatiPatatras · 03/07/2023 22:29

Spartacus, here, reporting for duty!

I'M Spartacus.

As you very well know.

PatatiPatatras · 03/07/2023 22:29

Spartacus, here, reporting for duty!

mauvish · 03/07/2023 22:15

Pingu. I'm Pingu. And noone can tell me otherwise. If anyone dares try, they are clearly in the wrong and penguinphobic.

Or might that be a bit silly?

Froodwithatowel · 03/07/2023 22:11

ButterflyHatched · 03/07/2023 18:11

You're whoever you say you are.

They don't have to agree with your views, but your friend should respect and support your stated experiences of your own body and how you relate to the rest of society without trying to weaponise a medical condition into a point-scoring exercise.

I'm Queen Victoria.

ArabeIIaScott · 03/07/2023 20:25

ButterflyHatched · 03/07/2023 18:11

You're whoever you say you are.

They don't have to agree with your views, but your friend should respect and support your stated experiences of your own body and how you relate to the rest of society without trying to weaponise a medical condition into a point-scoring exercise.

What, anyone? Anyone at all?

ErrolTheDragon · 03/07/2023 19:18

You're whoever you say you are.

No, you're not. It is wrong - medically and ethically - for a woman with PCOS to claim to be intersex (even if according to info upthread from @DSDaisy some do). It's not about our 'views' and 'experiences' - we simply are not intersex, and the OP's ex-friend is plain wrong as well as nasty for trying to weaponise this for point-scoring.

ButterflyHatched · 03/07/2023 18:11

You're whoever you say you are.

They don't have to agree with your views, but your friend should respect and support your stated experiences of your own body and how you relate to the rest of society without trying to weaponise a medical condition into a point-scoring exercise.

BreadInCaptivity · 03/07/2023 15:47

I also don’t understand why she is so supportive of trans people choosing their gender and yet wants to tell me which category I’m really in. It is offensive and upsetting.

Sorry am late to the thread but this really struck me.

OP you've really nailed your "friends" position quite neatly here yourself.

The simple fact is that she values the rights of trans people over women and is frankly prepared to say/do anything she thinks justifies something unjustifiable.

Your condition is a manifestation of being a woman.

She is no friend to you or to any woman.

Bin her.

Igmum · 03/07/2023 15:27

I've got cysts on my ovaries. I'm a woman. I have OVARIES. I may be less than physically perfect but that doesn't change my sex, it just means I'm an imperfect woman.

FelineGood76 · 03/07/2023 15:24

ScrollingLeaves · 03/07/2023 15:01

I know I have read only recently expert detail on DSDs, I wish I could remember on which thread. The real number as a proportion of the population is extremely small, not ‘as many as redheads’ and even then people are male or female, except for an infinitesimally small number.

0.018% , and they are always either make or female, no "infinitesimal small" number exists that are not male or female as proved through karyotype of dna. Nobody on the planet is something other than either male OR female. Nobody is a combination of both because true hermaphroditism does not exist in humans. Dsds either exists as a developmental problem along the male reproductive pathway, or along the female reproductive pathway. No other option.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/07/2023 15:01

Your "friend" is an idiot.

ScrollingLeaves · 03/07/2023 15:01

I know I have read only recently expert detail on DSDs, I wish I could remember on which thread. The real number as a proportion of the population is extremely small, not ‘as many as redheads’ and even then people are male or female, except for an infinitesimally small number.

hihelenhi · 03/07/2023 14:48

Your ex friend is a deeply unpleasant individual, and a bully as well as a gullible zealot. You are, as many on here have said, absolutely best off without a person like that in your life, but I appreciate it hurts deeply to be spoken to that way and to be treated that badly by someone who is beyond ignorant but is full of their own self congratulatory arrogance.

Let yourself grieve for a friendship that wasn't, it's natural to be hurt, but hopefully you'll eventually be able to take solace in ridding yourself of someone who REALLY isn't worth your time, has behaved appallingly, and as people have pointed out here, is not as smart or compassionate as she imagines. You are in the right, she's in the wrong, and in the long run, you get to have your integrity and pride intact. Her? Meh. Chin up. xx

ScrollingLeaves · 03/07/2023 14:11

PCOS has never been anything other than female.

And does not mean you are ‘intersex’.

Look at Victoria Beckham who has it.

Please don’t listen.

ErrolTheDragon · 03/07/2023 12:45

georgarina · 03/07/2023 11:31

She might as well argue that menopausal women are 'intersex.'

I've also heard people argue about PCOS when it comes to men competing in female sports. A woman with PCOS has nowhere near the testosterone of a man, even on medication.

Afaik having pcos gives us no advantages whatever versus other women. It's not remotely similar to someone who has higher testosterone and has been through male puberty.

georgarina · 03/07/2023 11:31

She might as well argue that menopausal women are 'intersex.'

I've also heard people argue about PCOS when it comes to men competing in female sports. A woman with PCOS has nowhere near the testosterone of a man, even on medication.

georgarina · 03/07/2023 11:29

Your friend is a fucking moron. PCOS causes a hormone imbalance in women. Up to 10% of women have it, me included. It's nothing to do with intersex.

Segat111 · 03/07/2023 11:07

Mental.