Disney went woke now they're going broke

Something else Superfood raised is an argument I personally have always disliked and found very specious. Which is 'if it's not fully realistic you can't object.' It's routinely trotted out to dismiss the feelings of fans of something. It's based on the fallacy that if you introduce a fantastic element, all objections suddenly have no basis because now anything can happen. It is an argument which gets used to throw out verisimilitude, culture, familiarity or internal consistency as needed. But realism in media isn't like virginity where once it's gone it's gone and any further changes don't make a difference. Of course they do. It's a flawed argument used to shutdown objections on the false basis that realism is the basis for them. I've never seen it used the other way around.

So @Superfood's big post I was going to reply to seems to have been deleted. There were some particular digs and there does seem to be a general tone of implying people are racist for disagreement. I liked the little bit about "dispelling the myth of GC being Right Wing feminism" or something. Hello - Right Wing feminist here! ;)

It talked about "anti-racism" and Disney's efforts to "combat racism" with the assumption they work. They don't. "Anti-racism" isn't being against racism. It is an academic term and is racism but in an approved direction. It leads to more racism.

People can tell the difference between The Princess and the Frog where the prince happens to be non-White and The Little Mermaid where someone set out to say "I don't want her to be White". The first is an act of acceptance. The latter an act of aggression. Always accompanied by "if it matters to you, you're a bigot". I don't think you have to be a bigot to dislike an agenda pushed on you or to resent being targetted. And to be clear, it is targetted.

Somebody wrote a browser extension for Chrome which replaces the words black and white on a webpage. Instantly the BBC website became filled with stories about "Black fragility," "Is Blackness a Problem" and my personal favourite: "What's wrong with Black people?" Anti-racists really think people don't notice this stuff and don't feel attacked. And when pointed out think it's a good thing. Even though attacking people based on their race OBVIOUSLY increases racial division and causes resentment. They think it's a good thing because they don't think in terms of individuals or if the treatment of an individual is good or fair, but more in terms of group identities and trying to balance them. Even if that's racist to individuals.

At any point someone can write a story about characters of any race, sex or sexuality. A new story. Yet what gets pushed repeatedly is taking and changing existing ones. The double-standard is to tell others that they can't care about the changes when knowing full well the changes are being made by people who very much do and are targeting a group because of it. And such people never seem to matter that the practical reality is to create racial and other resentment, because they'd rather 'fight racism' than eliminate it. Just as groups like Stonewall seem more interested in seeking out confrontation and manufacturing it when it is in short supply, growing in wealth and power as they do so, rather than diminishing as acceptance has grown. Hell, their efforts are actively making things worse for gay people in non-Western countries now. But it's an industry. There's money in the cause.

If someone wants me to not care about a character's skin colour, my response is "fine - you first".

No, I was referring to and responding to @DdraigGoch , which I thought was quite clear from the fact that I quoted their post and named them.

Shows that I never really watched much Star Trek! Well, they smooched and were different colours. That's the key part! And like you say, she broke barriers just by being a high-ranking competent crew member too.

@Superfood · that''s nice because I thought your post was a clear attempt to paint me as racist for daring to have a different view point to you.

Yeah, I wasn't referring to you. I understood your examples. I don't think a massive anachronism such as potatoes in medieval England or using a word wrongly is comparable to someone finding it 'odd' that a group of fictional mermaids could be played by actresses of different ethnicities.

I have seen the film. There was nothing remotely jarring about the casting of the mermaid sisters, unless you're someone with a problematic attitude to race.

I would suggest that someone who has no difficulty suspending belief in talking seagulls, singing crabs, shape-shifting witches, and fish/human hybrids, but finds siblings with different skin colours "jarring", has a problem with their attitudes to race.

I did get you were suggesting that the first time and frankly why you'd assume everyone must suspend disbelief in exactly the same way as you is to me very odd way of thinking.

I don't know enough about that poster to assign any reason for them finding anything odd but was merely offered different possible reasons base on my experience of fantasy.

My examples of jarring were nothing to do with race.

The sisters certainly had better costuming than Ariel. Ok, yeah I get there might be an element of practicality to it, but I would have preferred seaweed, shells, coral etc for her mermaid bra than a bit of sparkly material.

I mean sure, I suppose I could try and believe that they have the mermaid version of Primark under the sea. It's just a bit naff and against the original themes though.

The film did actually address this indirectly through the prejudice and animosity between the humans and the sea people, and how they were brought together with the love story. There was quite a clear analogy with racism.

It was also quite clear that each of king triton's daughters represented a different ocean of the world. I thought they were all beautiful.

Yes casting a black actress as the little mermaid is a good thing but to then set the movie in the Caribbean during the time of slavery but showing none of that instead having a happy relationships between the races basically airbrushes out slavery and the harms it caused so not great.

So you're saying that despite your thread title and laughter, The Little Mermaid just isn't woke enough for you.

I've seen the new Little Mermaid in the cinema - I liked it. I also saw the original in the cinema when I was a kid, and liked that too.

I would suggest that someone who has no difficulty suspending belief in talking seagulls, singing crabs, shape-shifting witches, and fish/human hybrids, but finds siblings with different skin colours "jarring", has a problem with their attitudes to race.

I took my own children and several of their friends and it's not something that was mentioned even in passing in the hours of excited chatter afterwards.

I think some people get confused about FWR.

First they think the board is 'anti trans' when in fact is it pro women's rights, and for the safeguarding of children.

Others confuse being anti surrogacy (from a position that babies shouldn't be created with the intent they will be removed from the woman who carried them for 9 months) means homophobic.

They then jump from these two misunderstandings to think this board will be against LGB rights or is inherently racist (where I see no reason to think it would be more racist than any other part of MN, quite possibly less racist.)

again - where did I mention realism ?

In fairness people post stuff like that all over mumsnet. I don’t believe they think it’s ok in FWR and nowhere else on MN.

If they happen to post their bullshit in FWR, it’s not the entire boards fault.

near prefect very rewatchable - up in my top ten ever films

Here too. I bloody loved it, that sound and look. I felt similar about Hamilton (slight tangent), which has a better pay structure iirc and great cast plus the energy and newness

There’s a lot to celebrate so it may just be the drab thing for The Little Mermaid

It's an ongoing theme. It's more than 1 or 2. Some get deleted.

There's a comment (that was deleted) on a post recently where someone said that non-European Christians weren't real Christians because they adapted the religion over time and don't possess the intellectual ability to understand true religion.

So for me, It's the fact that

1. people think it's ok to post them in the first place and
2. they post them on FWR.

Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse is really good - near prefect very rewatchable - up in my top ten ever films - on basis of that we're heading this weekend to cinema see the next one.

I was tempted to see Guardian 3 in cinema but no-one else was that bothered - and we can catch it on Disney + over summer with second wakanda film - but rest of marvel recent output we're not that bothered by as it's often been okay rather than great and the getting to and buy tickets does get pricy compared to month or two of Disney +.

So one or two posts that at a stretch could be considered racist, makes the whole of fwr racist. Ok then.

I haven’t seen the Little Mermaid to comment but I’d say some of it is the overall mood if it is drab

Look at Spider-Man multiverse films which were superb and likely did well, and Encanto which was non white

Both fantastic graphics and animation which appeal, and good characters, storyline etc

I am reading the thread, with the title and opening post (the ends with a laughing emoji) that links an article from the DM.

that article goes on about ‘wokeness’ juxtaposed against picture of the little mermaid (which the article has to admit is actually reaching its global box office target, so it is making money), and other pictures of racist imagery (Siamese cats and Native Americans behaving in a racist stereotypical way) against captions such as ‘now they are posting warnings on their films’ in a very ‘can you believe this rubbish’ tone.

and I’m also reading comments like ‘but she’s a RED HEAD, isn’t it racist to cast someone different?’

what thread are you reading?

Hmmm. What thread are you reading. I see reference to storytelling, art, suspension of disbelief, dislike of prescriptive messages. There are many problems with Disney output that have nothing to do with race. For example:
Costuming. In the Little Mermaid ditched half the iconic costumes and settled on drab versions. I loved the costuming in Aladdin but they got in trouble for being not authentic enough and too fantasy so I guess that could have influenced the costuming in later films.

I follow mermaiding on social media and the costumes regular people come up with which are functional and beautiful to use with a monofin are unbelievable. The little mermaid strip of material is so disappointing compared to these, I'd expect more from a film with an enormous budget. I assume they kept it looking like a cheap swimming costume so they can sell cheap swimming costumes.
The actress has actually done really well with using mermaid themed red carpet dresses. Such a shame she was denied these in the film.

The colour palette is nowhere near as vibrant as the original. Why set it in the Caribbean if you are not going to use bright colours? If they wanted it drab the original Dutch setting would be fine. I think this ties into a lot of people's disappointment they didn't make her hair brighter. I'm not sure anyone is asking for a super realistic, drab world so that excuse doesn't fly. A lot of the live remakes seem to go for realism over beauty and I question if anyone actually wants that.

The singing in the new Disney's are autotuned beyond recognition (see Emma Watson) The originals used Broadway actresses and their voices have soul. Even good singers sound bland when there's too much processing.

It's all too easy to complain about racism but they're making it very difficult to love the remakes and I'm not sure who they're marketed at: too scary for kids, deviate too much from.the originals for the adults that grew up with the originals. I suppose there's a small generation gap between those that may enjoy it, but do they really enjoy drab films that tell them what to think?

Thus could be true, I think a bigger picture is needed on this

Are we going to the movies less often generally

My preference is to separate out GC issues from this though

Lightyear has a lesbian couple which is completely fine, even if people react, children are less likely to (my dc didn’t they know a few same sex parents anyway)

Hahahaha, it’s so funny, they are going broke because they cast a black girl to play Ariel, hahahaa serves them right.

fuck off.

there is a very concerning crossover on the FWR board between the anti-pride sentiments and racism. All in the name of proudly being ‘anti-woke’. I don’t know why Mumsnet allows this to fester

I like Star Trek Strange New worlds - which I know not all trek fans do.

I even liked what they did with James T Kirk in last night's episode - he was still very smart adaptable needed to be in charge - and was teased about that - charismatic but a bluff he pulled without enough information got him killed - it was fine as it was alternative timeline situation. He wasn't suddenly and inexplicable stupid - it was a recognisable version of his established character.

But you didn't find the singing crab, the talking seagull, the shapeshifting witch, or the fact that they were half-girls, half-fish 'odd'?

All that was not odd at all...Just the fact that the actresses playing them were of different ethnicities?

I read a time traveling witch story - ( I read classic as well) clearly suspending a lot of disbelief but what pulled me out the story was 10 th century Scottish kitchen peeling potatoes - just no.

I had a similar irritation with London based working class repair man who discovers magical society and rapidly gets involved - all fine talking book/animals world wide conspiracies - jarring bit was constant talk of him attending public school - when it became very clear they actually meant a rough state comprehensive.

My kids were much more Pixar golden age and Studio Ghibli films so Little mermaid isn't something I've personally watched and not keen on live remakes so haven't seen latest versions - so I can't say it's something I personally would notice or not but It can be odd details that jar even when rest is clearly fantasy.

My DIL grew up with a red headed Belle. We all went to see the new one. We all enjoyed it. Three generations. Beauty and the beast, was fine . It's for children.

Now I love Frozen, Moana, Encanto we sing along all the time. The music makes it long lasting for us all