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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Christine and the Queens - at Glastonbury

156 replies

NotHavingIt · 26/06/2023 07:42

I'd never been fully aware of Christine and The Queens ( Heloise Letissier) before her set at Glastonbury on Saturday, but the complete performance of her new album was pretty phenomenal and worth a watch ( Link to BBC IPlayer below).

As I understand it she has recently 'come out' as a transman and sometimes now uses the stage name of 'Redcar'. Up until recently she has been experimenting and performing as a woman playing with 'masculine tropes'.

She has been in a relationship with a woman called 'Ocean' who has herself now transitioned - but in her case she has documented, on French TV, her transition journey, involving recovery from a mastectomy and the use of testosterone ( she was a good looking woman, not so much as a man).

Heloise says, in an interview I've read, that people keep suggesting to her ways she could do 'being a transman' better - by which she assumes they mean 'top surgery', hormones and cutting her hair short and so on - but she has held back because she says she doesn't feel the need to do all of that to explore her 'transness'. Good on her, and hopefully she holds out on that.

Her performance at Glastonbury was extraordinary. True art; although at times just a little bit mental. It involves numerous interior monologues as she documents her recent experiences ( and traumas) around her mother dying, her mental health struggles, suicide ideation, sex, and finally her re-birth as a boy.

She strips off her waistcoat near the beginning of the set to reveal intact breasts ( I was getting nervous that would not be the case at that point) but with her nipples covered with plasters ( this must have been on BBC guidance, as I think a public display of nipples on a woman is what is considered offensive, whereas not for a man). She performed the rest of the set topless.

So much food for thought and reflection on the back of this stage set - but as peice of complete art it was pretty amazing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0ft6v6z

BBC Music - Glastonbury, 2023, Christine and the Queens

A charismatic and mesmerising performance of electro-pop goodness.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0ft6v6z

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RealityFan · 27/06/2023 13:51

puffyisgood · 27/06/2023 13:20

re: Boy George - he's known these days as being vaguely GC, a small point of interest is that in his excellent 90s autobiography 'take it like a man', he did (kinda) describe himself as a "transvestite", and per the title was absolutely clear that this meant 'man'.

Well, that's an important point.

Transvestites hardly ever claimed they were women. The female equivalent didn't really exist. And there was no trans sector in the original Stonewall, Section 28 fight, the battle against AIDS.

Thank you Malcolm Clark for the real history lesson, not the after the event historical revisionism of the current trans activists.

I look at Christine, and can think great music. I also look at the transing and can think what a sell out Christine is.

puffyisgood · 27/06/2023 13:20

RealityFan · 27/06/2023 10:50

Well, my old dad did moan about gender non conforming David Bowie, and struggled with Marc Bolan.

I seem to remember fulminating over Boy George (and Dexys Midnight Runners for some reason, lol).

Never went for Madonna's "Sex" phase either (and the less said about Madge 2023 "vintage", the better).

Whatever we all felt about or gender bending cultural triggers being, um, triggered, I don't think we ever thought we'd see a situation where the reed bent so much in the wind that it snapped clean in half.

For me, whatever I think about Christine or the music, the trans declaration means that my conclusions are of an individual that is selfish (what is the effect on young girls, and boys, in thrall?), narcissistic (belief you can transgress biology), and not quite all there (another demonstration of pain and confusion, not serenity and strength).

Another victim of frailty projected as invunerability, 2023 version.

Just like we were all meant to view self harm, cutting, drug addiction, anorexia/bullimia, cult memberships, as projections of strength, and self belief.

It's just so tedious.

re: Boy George - he's known these days as being vaguely GC, a small point of interest is that in his excellent 90s autobiography 'take it like a man', he did (kinda) describe himself as a "transvestite", and per the title was absolutely clear that this meant 'man'.

Christine and the Queens - at Glastonbury
NotHavingIt · 27/06/2023 12:15

RealityFan · 27/06/2023 10:32

What, so Christine doesn't offend her old nan?

Seriously, the snob/pretension is off the scale.

Get 'em out for the guys (and gals/trans/NBs), but effectively cover up just enough to act all mysterious and demure.

What MAN covers up their nipples?

I can't believe I just wrote that, lol.

I'm talking about Victoria from Maneskin.

OP posts:
willWillSmithsmith · 27/06/2023 12:00

baggiesmalls · 26/06/2023 22:42

I'm going to
Compare this to the latest Friday of the live performance a few months back when a man with tits who identified as female played a set then whipped his Willy out for a last bash on the piano before running naked off stage

I see no difference.
Christine and the queens - was female now male whips out tits

Bloke was male now female whips out cock .

All fucking barking mad . Tho I did think Christine and her queens were more talented .

That all sounds very self obsessed, self centred and egotistical. Par for the course then.

BCCoach · 27/06/2023 11:11

NotHavingIt · 27/06/2023 10:15

Even when Victoria exposes her breasts on stage she always has nipple covering ( be it a glittery star, or whatever)

I think glittery stars are all within their aesthetic but also serve the practical purpose of preventing her bass strap from rubbing. She’s quite vocal about women’s freedom to go topless if they choose. She is Danish after all and collective/public nudity is a lot more socially acceptable. There’s a long line of hard rock and punk artists going nude and partially nude from Iggy onwards: GG Allin, Hawkwind, Siousxie, L7, the Slits, RHCP …

it’s art. Or attention seeking. Which kind of goes with the territory if you’re a rock star.

RealityFan · 27/06/2023 10:50

BobDylansNipples · 27/06/2023 10:37

The times they are a- well, you know the rest.
(Not meaning to be defeatist).

Well, my old dad did moan about gender non conforming David Bowie, and struggled with Marc Bolan.

I seem to remember fulminating over Boy George (and Dexys Midnight Runners for some reason, lol).

Never went for Madonna's "Sex" phase either (and the less said about Madge 2023 "vintage", the better).

Whatever we all felt about or gender bending cultural triggers being, um, triggered, I don't think we ever thought we'd see a situation where the reed bent so much in the wind that it snapped clean in half.

For me, whatever I think about Christine or the music, the trans declaration means that my conclusions are of an individual that is selfish (what is the effect on young girls, and boys, in thrall?), narcissistic (belief you can transgress biology), and not quite all there (another demonstration of pain and confusion, not serenity and strength).

Another victim of frailty projected as invunerability, 2023 version.

Just like we were all meant to view self harm, cutting, drug addiction, anorexia/bullimia, cult memberships, as projections of strength, and self belief.

It's just so tedious.

BobDylansNipples · 27/06/2023 10:37

The times they are a- well, you know the rest.
(Not meaning to be defeatist).

RealityFan · 27/06/2023 10:32

NotHavingIt · 27/06/2023 10:15

Even when Victoria exposes her breasts on stage she always has nipple covering ( be it a glittery star, or whatever)

What, so Christine doesn't offend her old nan?

Seriously, the snob/pretension is off the scale.

Get 'em out for the guys (and gals/trans/NBs), but effectively cover up just enough to act all mysterious and demure.

What MAN covers up their nipples?

I can't believe I just wrote that, lol.

Littlesprouts · 27/06/2023 10:27

Ah oh dear I misgendered Vic 😂
This thread is making me feel ancient all round 😂

NotHavingIt · 27/06/2023 10:15

BCCoach · 27/06/2023 08:39

I noticed that Vic from Manneskin kept covered up too so maybe a condition of being televised. Of course no problem with Damiano being taps aff. There will have been plenty of nudity in some of the more niche non-televised sets. Don’t think the BBC will be televising Wargasm any time soon…

Even when Victoria exposes her breasts on stage she always has nipple covering ( be it a glittery star, or whatever)

OP posts:
RealityFan · 27/06/2023 10:15

LaBefana · 27/06/2023 09:57

Isn't that called 'moobs'?

Can't a guy get ANY privacy?!

LaBefana · 27/06/2023 09:57

RealityFan · 27/06/2023 09:32

Haha, can one misgender someone's cleavage (as my old mum termed 'em)? Lol.

Isn't that called 'moobs'?

RealityFan · 27/06/2023 09:32

Haha, can one misgender someone's cleavage (as my old mum termed 'em)? Lol.

Littlesprouts · 27/06/2023 09:17

I stand corrected BCCoach! How odd. Unless it's part of his aesthetic. Yes I did think people have been milling about in the buff at festivals since Woodstock, guess it must be the televisation of it causing people to cover up. A bigger pay day I suppose.

BCCoach · 27/06/2023 08:39

Littlesprouts · 27/06/2023 07:34

It's almost as if this trans man's nipples aren't male enough to be on display.

Does anyone know if Chris covered them up on tour in solo shows or would have been allowed to perform topless?

Would it have been allowed at Glasto or would it be some kind of public order thing? Or would being covered be a condition of being televised on the BBC?

All relevant questions and for Chris to comply knows they ultimately know which way the bread is buttered - having to compromise in a way it's clear a man would not.

I noticed that Vic from Manneskin kept covered up too so maybe a condition of being televised. Of course no problem with Damiano being taps aff. There will have been plenty of nudity in some of the more niche non-televised sets. Don’t think the BBC will be televising Wargasm any time soon…

Littlesprouts · 27/06/2023 07:34

It's almost as if this trans man's nipples aren't male enough to be on display.

Does anyone know if Chris covered them up on tour in solo shows or would have been allowed to perform topless?

Would it have been allowed at Glasto or would it be some kind of public order thing? Or would being covered be a condition of being televised on the BBC?

All relevant questions and for Chris to comply knows they ultimately know which way the bread is buttered - having to compromise in a way it's clear a man would not.

Randommother · 27/06/2023 07:08

she has an amazing voice, and incredible vocal energy, but I felt like I was watching a mental health breakdown on stage.

baggiesmalls · 26/06/2023 22:42

I'm going to
Compare this to the latest Friday of the live performance a few months back when a man with tits who identified as female played a set then whipped his Willy out for a last bash on the piano before running naked off stage

I see no difference.
Christine and the queens - was female now male whips out tits

Bloke was male now female whips out cock .

All fucking barking mad . Tho I did think Christine and her queens were more talented .

RealityFan · 26/06/2023 22:40

BCCoach · 26/06/2023 22:11

Peter Gabriel frequently got shirt off (or bodice or flower costume or whatever he happened to be wearing).

He did indeed. He also donned a giant fox's head on stage. Mercifully, he didn't claim he was Vulpine gender.

baggiesmalls · 26/06/2023 22:38

baggiesmalls · 26/06/2023 20:41

I saw 👀 iffy pops performance on "the white room" in the 90s which his transparent trousers .

I had to have a lie down . 😂

I should however quantify that with at least we could tell which gender he was iout of the two there were beck then .....

kafkascastle · 26/06/2023 22:35

It was an extraordinary performance. Very thought provoking, as you say, OP.

BCCoach · 26/06/2023 22:11

RealityFan · 26/06/2023 21:58

I'm a Rush and Genesis fan. No nipples there back in the day. Unless some slipped past the loose fitting kimonos.

Peter Gabriel frequently got shirt off (or bodice or flower costume or whatever he happened to be wearing).

JaneJeffer · 26/06/2023 22:10

@NotHavingIt you seem easily offended

Gizzey · 26/06/2023 22:07

I’m gutted she’s doing all this transitioning shite. She is an amazing performer and I loved her playing around with gender stereotypes and subverting them. She was so fresh.

Pretending to change sex is the antithesis of this in my opinion. Disappointing.

purplepencilcase · 26/06/2023 22:01

I was only thinking the today how great it was that she was obviously very masculine but had stayed an intact woman, reminding us all that women come in all shapes and sizes.. I'm pretty disappointed she's now saying she's a transman.
I still love her so much though!!!

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