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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Teenager guilty of murder.

955 replies

placemats · 23/06/2023 13:26

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/teenager-guilty-baby-herefordshire-hide-pregnancy-paris-mayo

Apart from the fact that she was raped, if consent to sex is to be a legal term, I find the prosecutions allegations appalling.

'But the prosecution alleged Mayo must have known she was pregnant but chose to deliberately conceal it because she was always planning to kill the baby.'

Perhaps Mayo didn't get early abortion help she needed. I know of one woman, who had 3 previous children, who didn't realise she was pregnant, thought it was early menopause until 4 weeks before her due date. However to allege she was always planning to kill the baby is a step too far. It intimates that those in authority know this child's mind.

Teenager guilty of murdering baby in Herefordshire to hide pregnancy

Paris Mayo, now 19, violently assaulted newborn in 2019 to stop family finding out about the birth

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/teenager-guilty-baby-herefordshire-hide-pregnancy-paris-mayo

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placemats · 25/06/2023 16:54

So 2 of the 12 members of the jury disagreed with the decision.

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AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 16:53

placemats · 25/06/2023 16:51

Two of the jury members didn't agree. It was a split decision.

So what?

AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 16:52

AP5Diva · 25/06/2023 16:25

Yes there is a difference but honestly, when statistics state that two thirds of mothers that commit infanticide were suffering from psychosis, it is less of an invention or speculation to adhere to the balance of probability, than it is to insist on the scenario of least probability- that she was sane and it was a premeditated, planned murder.

It’s also not true those of discussing this “know nothing of what happened”

I don’t think it is wrong to question whether a jury got it right in a case like this- especially when it’s not a matter of guilt vs innocence but nuances of infanticide vs murder.

How can you possibly say what the scenario of least probability was if you haven’t heard any of the evidence??? Cases are supposed to be decided on the evidence, not the bundle preconceptions and theories and ideas about “probability” the jurors take into the jury room!!
please, for the love of god, do me one favour. If you’re ever invited to serve on a jury, find an excuse to get out of it.

placemats · 25/06/2023 16:51

AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 16:48

You think 12 people who have heard all the evidence and been carefully directed by the judge are no more to be relied on than randoms posting on the internet with no knowledge of the case at all?
wow. Incredible scenes on MN this afternoon. Literally incredible.

Two of the jury members didn't agree. It was a split decision.

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Iwasafool · 25/06/2023 16:51

placemats · 25/06/2023 16:50

If you have unprotected sex with a teenage girl/woman as a youth/man you run the risk of being a father. The consequences are simple.

You still haven't explained how he knew she was pregnant if she didn't.

Weveforgottenwhoweare · 25/06/2023 16:50

THIS THREAD IS BATSHIT

placemats · 25/06/2023 16:50

If you have unprotected sex with a teenage girl/woman as a youth/man you run the risk of being a father. The consequences are simple.

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AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 16:48

ArabeIIaScott · 25/06/2023 15:58

A jury is potentially just as partisan and prone to speculative and emotional judgement as anyone on this thread.

You think 12 people who have heard all the evidence and been carefully directed by the judge are no more to be relied on than randoms posting on the internet with no knowledge of the case at all?
wow. Incredible scenes on MN this afternoon. Literally incredible.

placemats · 25/06/2023 16:47

He had unprotected sex with her twice on two different occasions.

Ergo, there are consequences to these actions.

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AllOfThemWitches · 25/06/2023 16:47

placemats · 25/06/2023 16:35

If as a male, no matter what your age, you refuse to have unprotected sex then the consequences of your actions should be that you help. Not walk away.

So, 15yo girls are innocent little children but 15yo boys should be held to the same standards as adults. Interesting.

Iwasafool · 25/06/2023 16:39

placemats · 25/06/2023 16:32

So if he was say 14 when impregnating Mayo, would that excuse him? Would him being a teenage father, and he is a father to a dead child, refused to help the mother of his child, would that excuse him?

If he was 14 and it was consensual sex he wouldn't get prosecuted for rape.

Again if she didn't know she was pregnant what was he refusing to help with? .

Iwasafool · 25/06/2023 16:37

placemats · 25/06/2023 16:35

If as a male, no matter what your age, you refuse to have unprotected sex then the consequences of your actions should be that you help. Not walk away.

If she says she didn't know she was pregnant how would he know?

placemats · 25/06/2023 16:35

If as a male, no matter what your age, you refuse to have unprotected sex then the consequences of your actions should be that you help. Not walk away.

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placemats · 25/06/2023 16:32

Iwasafool · 25/06/2023 16:27

Do we know how old he was?

So if he was say 14 when impregnating Mayo, would that excuse him? Would him being a teenage father, and he is a father to a dead child, refused to help the mother of his child, would that excuse him?

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placemats · 25/06/2023 16:30

AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 15:47

There is a difference between discussing the case rationally and advancing speculation and invention to buttress your preferred preconceived view of what the outcome should have been - which people on both sides of the debate are doing, rather than acknowledging that maybe their preconceptions might not be right and they should keep an open mind.
it’s also wrong and unfair to slate jurors and judges by suggesting they got it wrong when you know nothing of what happened, other than that the outcome wasn’t what you wanted.

The judge is there to judge the proceedings. Despite the CPS bringing a prosecution of murder, 4 years after the event happened, so that Mayo was prosecuted as an adult and not a juvenile, the Judge did say that Infanticide could be considered by the jury.

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Iwasafool · 25/06/2023 16:27

Gothambutnotahamster · 25/06/2023 16:18

He should at least be fine for rape @Iwasafool given she was only 15 when she had the baby.

Do we know how old he was?

placemats · 25/06/2023 16:26

Gothambutnotahamster · 25/06/2023 16:18

He should at least be fine for rape @Iwasafool given she was only 15 when she had the baby.

She was fourteen when pregnant. Y8/Y9 in school term.

No one is fined for raped in this country.

He knew she was pregnant yet did nothing about supporting her. What sort of a parent, and he is a parent, no matter what his age, does that?

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Iwasafool · 25/06/2023 16:26

placemats · 25/06/2023 16:14

Oh so walking away when someone is in need is perfectly fine - that person will go on to be a great partner/husband and father. Nothing to see here. He just used sperm to create a pregnancy. No one is ever going to judge him.

It isn't fine but it isn't criminal.

AP5Diva · 25/06/2023 16:25

AgathaSpencerGregson · 25/06/2023 15:47

There is a difference between discussing the case rationally and advancing speculation and invention to buttress your preferred preconceived view of what the outcome should have been - which people on both sides of the debate are doing, rather than acknowledging that maybe their preconceptions might not be right and they should keep an open mind.
it’s also wrong and unfair to slate jurors and judges by suggesting they got it wrong when you know nothing of what happened, other than that the outcome wasn’t what you wanted.

Yes there is a difference but honestly, when statistics state that two thirds of mothers that commit infanticide were suffering from psychosis, it is less of an invention or speculation to adhere to the balance of probability, than it is to insist on the scenario of least probability- that she was sane and it was a premeditated, planned murder.

It’s also not true those of discussing this “know nothing of what happened”

I don’t think it is wrong to question whether a jury got it right in a case like this- especially when it’s not a matter of guilt vs innocence but nuances of infanticide vs murder.

Gothambutnotahamster · 25/06/2023 16:18

*done not fine

Gothambutnotahamster · 25/06/2023 16:18

He should at least be fine for rape @Iwasafool given she was only 15 when she had the baby.

AP5Diva · 25/06/2023 16:17

Iwasafool · 25/06/2023 16:06

So with the legal advice she would have had why didn't she plead guilty to infanticide if that was what happened? It doesn't make sense in fact I think many people would have encouraged her to do that even if it wasn't true and lets face it many people would be supporting that.

Quite, it’s the actions of an insane person with false memories to continue to believe they are innocent and not plead guilty to infanticide - which is exactly what Mayo did.

Iwasafool · 25/06/2023 16:17

placemats · 25/06/2023 13:14

Plus the father of the baby was sexually experienced because he said that using condoms is less of a sexual experience.

No regard for the outcome. Should be brought to justice as well.

I know men get blamed for everything on here but seriously you think he should get done for murdering a baby he never even saw? If you mean he should be prosecuted for not supporting her should that happen to all men because the courts will never cope.

Presumably she was sexually experienced as she initially thought the father was someone else.

Was the father another teenager, I googled but can't find anything about him.

placemats · 25/06/2023 16:14

Iwasafool · 25/06/2023 16:07

Well he didn't kill anyone did he so why shouldn't he?

Oh so walking away when someone is in need is perfectly fine - that person will go on to be a great partner/husband and father. Nothing to see here. He just used sperm to create a pregnancy. No one is ever going to judge him.

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Iwasafool · 25/06/2023 16:07

placemats · 25/06/2023 13:03

Meanwhile the male who got her pregnant, father of the baby, goes on to have a happy loving family.

Well he didn't kill anyone did he so why shouldn't he?