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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Glinner calling women "handmaidens"

268 replies

ftmquestions · 21/06/2023 22:34

Respect to glinner for speaking up but does anyone else consider his use of the term "handmaiden" grating? I don't like men calling women sexist names because they don't agree with him. Not one to criticise usually, cba with purity politics etc - and he can say what he likes - but I just wondered if I was alone in this making me bristle slightly

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Florissante · 23/06/2023 18:58

The saying in Italian for "good luck" is "boca di lupo" (literally, wolf's mouth). Of course Italians are literally hoping that other people are eaten by wolves.

AlisonDonut · 23/06/2023 18:54

Soon they will be arresting actors for telling each other to Break a Leg...literal violence...

BaronMunchausen · 23/06/2023 17:21

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

One obviously was sarcasm, while the other wasn't. The referent for Linehan's verbal irony was the frequent public death-threats and murderous language used by TRAs - the "decapitate Terfs" sign being just one example.

Slothtoes · 23/06/2023 17:11

Thanks Serafina. OK fine. So a very narrow view of only some radical separatists. Fine for any woman to have nothing to do with men sexually or otherwise if that’s not for her, obviously. Any judging of other women’s preferences because they do choose to have relationships with men can be safely ignored.
For me, that judging doesn’t do anything to change the meaning of ‘handmaiden’ as used in context to describe the TRA acolytes.

Slothtoes · 23/06/2023 17:03

Alison you’re quite right of course. I just meant the more visible GC people but you make an important point!

BezMills · 23/06/2023 13:56

I'm for sure not a TERF but why would I believe in Gender? I don't need a Gender, I don't want a Gender. No thank you.

I mean if I was forced to choose at gunpoint, I'd choose Lego Gender, I assume that's a thing, right?

mirax · 23/06/2023 13:37

lechiffre55 · 23/06/2023 09:11

Does anyone else here sort of feel proud of the word TERF? Like every time I hear the phrase "TERF Island" referring to the UK, as a resident of the UK I feel proud I live here, and how well women here are defending their rights and not being wheesht by the "useful idiots".
I know TERF is meant to be derogatory, but like the N word I feel it's been reclaimed by the people it's meant to demean and changed from something negative into a postitive, a word that represents solidarity between strong women who refuse to be cast as passive powerless victims.
For example David Lammy calling women "dinosaurs hoarding rights like eggs" resulting in women right's campaigners hilariously running around London in dinosaur costumes with armfuls of colourful eggs mocking his ignorant egotistical proclamation. It shows the remarkable strength and courage of women facing the the loss of their rights responding with great spirit and humour to an out of touch moronic politician who has no grasp of the situation and who couldn't care less about uterus havers who don't submit and conform to his view of how menstruators should behave and think. Women turning something very negative and condescending right around into a positive and joyous message through great character. Elaine Miller flashing a merkin in Hollyrood in protest is another example of grabbing the headlines with humour and wit, popping the pomposity of the now disgraced Herr Sturgeon of Lightfingers, once owner of the grandest luxury motorhome North of the Clyde.
Compare that to the agression, intimidation and violence of those who use the word TERF as a slur. Drenching themselves in piss, playing piano with their cock, jugging their fake tits on the Whitehouse lawn, the lack of humour, the despising of humour and comedy, the need to involve children in their every sexual fantasy. It's very clear to me that the TERFs are the ones with wit, humour, honesty, and heart, and being called a TERF by these vile people seems to me one of the greatest positive endorsements and sign of good character that it's possible to get.
I am so proud to live on TERF Island, thank you ladies for all that you do.

Terf is a badge of honour. Take a bow all ye wonderful women of MN and the UK.

AlisonDonut · 23/06/2023 13:29

Can I point out that there isn't a GC crowd.

There are people who believe in the concept of a gender identity for whatever reason and there is the rest of humanity.

SerafinasGoose · 23/06/2023 13:24

Slothtoes · 23/06/2023 13:23

Eh what? I’m confused. Has the language moved on for ‘handmaiden’? Thought the GC crowd were all for keeping language categories as stable as possible. What’s it got to do with fucking?!

There's a link above to a thread by Posie Parker, in which she claims she had been accused (by radical feminists) of pandering to the patriarchy because she's heterosexual.

Slothtoes · 23/06/2023 13:23

Eh what? I’m confused. Has the language moved on for ‘handmaiden’? Thought the GC crowd were all for keeping language categories as stable as possible. What’s it got to do with fucking?!

CurlewKate · 23/06/2023 12:36

@SerafinasGoose Many apologies-I misunderstood you.

SerafinasGoose · 23/06/2023 12:28

CurlewKate · 23/06/2023 12:14

@SerafinasGoose "The term 'handmaiden' used in this context is obviously a backward slide - the reasoning that if you're fucking a man you're a a 'handmaiden to the patriarchy'"

I would agree with you -if that's what the term "handmaiden" meant. But it doesn't. However much 3rd wave feminists want to make it mean that.

My post might well not have made it clear: I know it doesn't mean that. But as you say, in recent discussions seen on MN it's seemingly being interpreted as such.

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 23/06/2023 12:21

Grimbelina · 23/06/2023 09:26

DemiColon

Most women who support gender ideology do so because they think it's right.

Where is the evidence of this? I know many women who are TWAW. Many of these actually really don't care about other women or children, people with less power (despite claiming otherwise), they just care about moving up a power structure, succeeding at any cost. They will jump on any bandwagon if they see it as a way to further themselves... and consequently many are very successful and in spheres where they have huge influence.

They are morally bankrupt and those who are very publicly TWAW etc. need to shore up these beliefs or they will lose status if/when the beliefs attached to the power structures change. This is what Glinner is up against in the media and this why his career has been destroyed.

I actually have more sympathy for those who genuinely hold these beliefs as they have been captured... although you would hope that once they realise the damage these beliefs do to women and children etc. that they would change direction.

Handmaiden seems a good shorthand for both groups but probably more deserved by the former.

I saw a tweet this morning that mentioned communal narcissism earlier today and found it interesting and fits with what you say.

https://twitter.com/xxclusionary/status/1672125706610913281

https://twitter.com/xxclusionary/status/1672125706610913281

CurlewKate · 23/06/2023 12:14

@SerafinasGoose "The term 'handmaiden' used in this context is obviously a backward slide - the reasoning that if you're fucking a man you're a a 'handmaiden to the patriarchy'"

I would agree with you -if that's what the term "handmaiden" meant. But it doesn't. However much 3rd wave feminists want to make it mean that.

IneedanewTV · 23/06/2023 11:59

Slothtoes · 23/06/2023 11:49

And I think Glinner has earned his stripes to use handmaiden if that wasn’t clear

Exactly.

Slothtoes · 23/06/2023 11:49

And I think Glinner has earned his stripes to use handmaiden if that wasn’t clear

SerafinasGoose · 23/06/2023 11:48

Slothtoes · 23/06/2023 11:46

Handmaiden is also quite an ironic witty reversal type of term when used by gender critical women, which is clever when used in context. It harks back to a patriarchal historical portrayal of faceless female acolytes, serving and enabling and rightfully abasing themselves for some godlike and usually male being. Nurses (female obviously) used to be called (male) doctors’ handmaidens FFS
It does seem an appropriate term for the servile witlessness of men and women (men as well!) who are debasing themselves for the cause.
Its not an appropriate term for aggressive TRAs because that is not how handmaidens behave.

Indeed.

But as to the #BeKind mantra adopted by those 'allies' who support the aggressive activists to their own and other women's detriment, and then admonish those women who object ...

Slothtoes · 23/06/2023 11:46

Handmaiden is also quite an ironic witty reversal type of term when used by gender critical women, which is clever when used in context. It harks back to a patriarchal historical portrayal of faceless female acolytes, serving and enabling and rightfully abasing themselves for some godlike and usually male being. Nurses (female obviously) used to be called (male) doctors’ handmaidens FFS
It does seem an appropriate term for the servile witlessness of men and women (men as well!) who are debasing themselves for the cause.
Its not an appropriate term for aggressive TRAs because that is not how handmaidens behave.

SerafinasGoose · 23/06/2023 11:18

Theeyeballsinthesky · 23/06/2023 10:33

I believe themes the rules Trex

TRA threatening violence against women - ironic, cant you take a joke, it’s not serious

TRA committing actual violence against women - TERFS are fair game, it’s fine to punch a TERF

glinner saying anything at all - ban him, Nazi bigot, hahaha your wife left you

Agree.

It's also frustrating to see this issue - yet again - coming round to the tedious, perennial angst and defensiveness surrounding WOHM vs. SAHM. Staying around on MN for a while has convinced me that for some women this tired, regressive, repetitive treadmill to nowhere is the sum total of what feminism stands for; has forever stood for; that it's solely about their personal decisions respecting domestic and paid labour. Because, after all, 'feminism is about "choice"'.

The term 'handmaiden' used in this context is obviously a backward slide - the reasoning that if you're fucking a man you're a a 'handmaiden to the patriarchy' is as ludicrous as the idea that being bisexual, or indeed even an adult human female in the actual sense of that word, is 'transphobic'. But there are shortcuts to thinking on all sides of this issue.

If it relates to women who willingly chuck other women under the bus, who cede over/violate their spaces without their consent, who utter any variation on the theme of reframing our trauma, who want them in competition with natal males in sports which put them at risk and nullify their achievements; if they coyly sidle up to threads where women have been victims of terrible assaults, rape, VAWG, stalking, DPV, etc., at the hands of men and want help and advice to tell them 'NAMALT', and think of the men, then 'handmaiden' suits those women to a tee.

I do know the origins of the term, and use it very advisedly. And in contexts like the above, I have no issue with it whatsoever. If women opt to do such things to other women, and in doing so make themselves part of the problem, they can damned well take the criticism that comes with it. In which case 'Handmaiden' is exceptionally mild.

BezMills · 23/06/2023 11:14

Thanks @SerafinasGoose , every day is a school day for me. I learn.

SerafinasGoose · 23/06/2023 11:07

BezMills · 23/06/2023 08:20

"Posie Parker rally (who for further context is a terf who is known for praising and sharing her platform with openly far-right groups)."

Firstly, @FriendlyNeighbourhoodTrans I think the FWR posters are quite familiar with PP aka KJK. But they are not your intended audience, I guess?

Secondly, citation needed. Some evidence of this ludicrous smear would be nice.

Inaccurate.

'TERF' by its definition relates to radical feminism. Radical feminism in itself is associated with the second wave emerging c.1960, which in its more outlandish manifestations recommended women wearing in boiler suits, not shaving or using cosmetics, living in lesbian communes, claiming that even the remotest 'service' to men (like being married) was seen as a betrayal of the [non-existent] 'sisterhood'. Valerie Solanas and her SCUM Manifesto were in their natural home within an ideology structured like this.

The linked thread by Kellie Jay Keen details how she's been attacked from just such a perspective, apparently for the cardinal sin of being heterosexual, or having conformed to particular 'gendered' stereotypes. As for the third wave and so-called 'liberal' feminism - apparently 'liberal' to everyone barring women - it's easy to see why such trends in feminist thinking have no place for an activist in the mold of Kellie Jay Keen.

It's clear why feminism has sold Keen out and left her no position from which to speak. By the above reckoning, I can see why she's chosen to reject the label. Calling her a 'TERF' only shows the ignorance of those doing the calling.

BaronMunchausen · 23/06/2023 11:00

ftmquestions · 21/06/2023 22:34

Respect to glinner for speaking up but does anyone else consider his use of the term "handmaiden" grating? I don't like men calling women sexist names because they don't agree with him. Not one to criticise usually, cba with purity politics etc - and he can say what he likes - but I just wondered if I was alone in this making me bristle slightly

I am open to what you say (as long as you’re just talking about men using this word), but we do need shorthands and wonder what words you think would be ok? Cheerleader? Enabler? Or do we need a longhand critique (‘women who facilitate the inclusion of males in the safe spaces, services and sports of women and girls etc etc’) every time, to identify the position of a given woman? Or should males never apply pejorative words to females that are sex-specific?

Pertaining to which, it does need to be said that Linehan using ‘handmaiden’ of, say, Layla Moran, is very different from those male TRAs bellowing abuse at women who value sex-based rights. “Handmaiden” is never used in conjunction with “kill a…”, “suck my d1ck…”, “punch a …”, "decapitate..." etc. And 'terf' is sex-specific - both in practice, and insofar as male allies are allies rather than feminists.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 23/06/2023 10:33

I believe themes the rules Trex

TRA threatening violence against women - ironic, cant you take a joke, it’s not serious

TRA committing actual violence against women - TERFS are fair game, it’s fine to punch a TERF

glinner saying anything at all - ban him, Nazi bigot, hahaha your wife left you

Trextet · 23/06/2023 10:28

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Grimbelina · 23/06/2023 10:25

Trextet I read that as irony as that is what TRA are actually doing (making death threats) and Glinner defended it as such.

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