Former staff from controversial Tavistock facility set up private gender clinic

I wish I could be as optimistic as you are 😁in my mind it will all go in the opposite direction. Fingers crossed the lawsuits come soon.

The changing tide is inevitable. More and more countries and jurisdictions will move away from the current model as they see it to be unsustainable to pretend the evidence is on their side. America will be big, as insurance and lawsuits take hold.

I think the relevant point comes from Time to Think. There’s a point in the book where it becomes clear that the demand exists because the possibility of puberty blockers exists. One of the clinicians is asked if puberty blockers weren’t available what would happen and he says “they wouldn’t come.” As the availability becomes less, fewer patients will be demanding it. Most patients will accept their lot that they have to go through puberty - as has happened since forever - and not even demand it. As other more demanding teenagers, and their parents, see that it isn’t actually necessary then they will start demanding it less. The narrative will shift from “this is a lifesaving necessity” to “this is here if you want it”.

And privately that will only cater for a very small number. I think it speaks to their incredible hubris. There was no private market for this before 2015 and they’re investing in a business model that assumes this market will exist for the rest of their careers. It’s like investing in a lobotomy business in 1950: plenty of cases still being done, but countries starting to ban the practice. But these guys are convinced the patients will just keep on coming. They’re bonkers.

I guess this has been set up to yes get new referrals but also to hive off all the thousands of people who are already in the system, and who the NHS will no longer prescribe those lifelong drugs to.

I see this as a tiny sign that they think they cannot continue to work in the new clinics which is good, but would be really interested in how the finances work in terms of referrals and funding.

A fair amount of the team already work for Kelly Psychology, as Gender Plus has one director and person of significant interest, Dr Aidan Kelly. However on this website, no pronouns! What are the chances? Is it all just a performance? Who knows.

https://www.kellypsychology.co.uk/our-team

I saw that Dr Kelly presented on his research at the EPATH conference that he has done through Kelly Psychology, however there is no link that I can see to that on the Kelly Psychology website. This in turn led me to the BAGIS - British Association of Gender Identity Specialists...

https://bagis.co.uk/position-process-statements/

BAGIS wishes to express concern regarding the interim service specification for specialist gender dysphoria services for children and young people. The proposed approach is unnecessarily paternalistic and interrogative; with a clinical pathway which fails to acknowledge the fact that gender diversity is simply a normal part of human diversity. While care must be taken to ensure young people receive appropriate treatment, the proposed specification focuses instead on simple gatekeeping without due regard to the healthcare needs and human rights of the young people it seeks to serve. In no cases should social transition require medical approval. The language used is reductive and pathologizing, compulsory enrolment onto clinical trials unethical, and punishment for families seeking help elsewhere set to further isolate this already minoratized group. BAGIS views the proposed situation for gender identity services for young people in England and Wales as a worrying departure from international best practice and calls on NHS England and the department of Health to develop service specifications which are evidence based and which are co-produced with young gender diverse people and their carers/families at every stage and as per WPATH and Endocrine Society guidelines.

So looks like the plans in the new services is to enrol everyone on these clinical trials and begs the question, if gender diversity is simply a normal part of human diversity, why the need to medicate people? And at every stage? Really? I thought you guys dropped everyone once they started to desist or question what you have done to them and didn't record any long term findings? And again, no pronouns on the list of the council members.

Looking at their noticeboard: the masterclass in top surgery is CPD accredited. <jaw drops>

• Surgery masterclass with Ioannis Ntanos is now CPD accredited. The link to book is on Eventbrite and has added a number of student tickets at the significantly discounted rate of £75. www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/top-surgery-masterclass-tickets-602568537717 This is password protected: Top5urgery2023

Nice password fella

And again, front facing info on instagram:
Mr Ioannis Ntanos (He/Him)
Consultant surgeon and bioethicist.
Specialist in gender affirmation top surgery.
I like reading poetry and the colour green

Also ran an 'ethics in healthcare' session in may and has 'I got 99 problems but my tits aren't one' pic on his insta. Classy.

How are these utter charlatans allowed to practice medicine?

I guess time will tell though whether or not there is enough demand for something like this to succeed. On the plus side at least it's not tax payers money funding malpractice and when it all goes pair shaped it won't be tax payers money paying the costs of litigation.

Second, they must see that the shift away from this model worldwide will mean it will be harder to convince new clients - parents and children - that they should part with their hard earned cash.

Who is shifting away from this model? State run healthcare in some countries may be taking a more cautious approach but is there evidence that demand from those seeking "care" is lessening?

Could those clinics be commissioned by the local NHS commissioning group to provide NHS services? I’m not sure how that side of the NHS works, but I live near a world famous specialist hospital, which is essentially private, but does all the NHS cases locally for their specialism. When I say local, it’s probably across three counties.

I hope that in the not too distant future the NHS (probably driven by taxpayers' concerns about the cost of all this nonsense) comes to its senses about trans 'healthcare'.

There should be NICE reviews of all treatments, which would show the complete lack of evidence for improvement in mental health (and definite detriments to physical health) after medical and surgical 'transition', and the NHS should stop funding it altogether, for anyone, children and adults.

People in psychological distress should have access to psychological treatment to help them come to terms with the reality of their lives, like the rest of us.
People who don't have mental health conditions (remember, 'being transgender' is not a mental health condition) and want cosmetic treatment because they want to look like the other sex, can go and see deluded charlatans like this and pay for it themselves.

Then in the long term, sue the arses off them, for the damage they've done to healthy bodies.

But in my view it’s folly as a long term business plan though, for a few reasons.

First, the UK is not used to private healthcare and most can’t afford it. That means of those thousands, there will only be a small percentage of children whose parents can access the private option. So their market will be small to start with.

Second, they must see that the shift away from this model worldwide will mean it will be harder to convince new clients - parents and children - that they should part with their hard earned cash.

And private clinics in America have done well, they’ve exploded, but it’s unsustainable. They will be sued out of existence or insurance will price them out.

I think they’re setting up a private clinic that will, in time, only attract the wealthy Transhausen by proxy types. You can’t keep a private medical practice sustained on that alone.

Do they really think there will be thousands of children seeking private medical treatments in 5-10 years?!

They know there are currently thousands. By all accounts the NHS service has ground to a halt. When (and it’ll take longer than they are saying) it’s back up and running puberty blockers will only be prescribed under very specific research conditions. In the meantime thousands of (mostly) middle class children are beginning to go through a puberty they’ve convinced themselves is malign. America’s private clinics do very well. I don’t see why it should be any different here especially if there isn’t a properly functioning NHS service available. I wonder if this has been done on purpose to shift the burden onto the private sector.

WPATH and their SoC exist to help facilitate transition under the air of a (pseudo)authoritative voice. Everyone knows this. The question is how to undo their air of authority. The SoC will be subject to a systematic review at some stage which will undoubtedly help remove some authority and it will be increasingly become a fringe quasi-religious document. Saying “we treat as per WPATH” will be akin to “we treat as per the Holy Bible”.

The question is and has always been how do you stop people seeking private treatments that harm them?

I think this is a poor business decision, personally. To come in to the “market” ( as opposed to Webberley who has cashed in before it drops) at this point when it’s only going to become less lucrative as the world shifts away from butchering people means they won’t make much out of it. Do they really think there will be thousands of children seeking private medical treatments in 5-10 years?! Bonkers, although a lack of insight and perspective is part of the reason we are in this mess.

WPATH SoC include 'Eunuch' as a gender identity. There's plenty more in there that I doubt would match up wiht NHS guidelines.

https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc

Our practice is guided by WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) Standards of Care and NHS Service Specifications for Gender Services

Does anyone know the WPATH standards of care and the NHS specifications are? Would they align?

Isn’t the transwomen gender construction surgeon , Dr Marci Bowers, who was interviewed on ‘What is a woman?’ the President of WPATH? If so WPATH standards of care may be a very backward step.

Have the NHS standards been revised since the Cass report?

It can't be stopped and the tax payer will be forking out more.

IwantToRetire · Today 19:27

They also appear to do surgery assessments over Zoom

Is this possibile?????????????^

Worryingly they also offer autism assessment.

Yes I saw that and just thought I bet they just put that there to make it look like they have

It may be worse than that, unfortunately. What Mermaids was doing in special SEN sessions for parents, was tell them that autistic children are typically trans too - as if being trans is an inbuilt neurodiversity that goes alongside autism. ( There was thread about this about six months ago.)

Whereas in reality it seems very likely that identifying as trans is a coping mechanism for autistic children to explain their feelings of not fitting in to themselves; perhaps their discomfort with puberty if they are that age; possibly their discomfort with girls clothes and dangly hair when they are girls; and a way to get approval and friends.

So Genderplus could gaslight the Government and parents to make it seem as though they will make a differential diagnosis of autism, when in reality they will be using the autism diagnosis to co-opt a diagnosis of the child of being trans.

Please please tell me the courts can stop this (and preferably jail the lot of them). I assume they will be following WPATH guidelines and ignoring whatever the NHS set up. This is truly terrifying

Not surprised they have one in Dublin. We pay for GP and consultant visits anyway, so it'll be no more expensive than going down the public route. And, of course, we are about 3 years behind the UK in waking up to all this. In addition, we have self-id (with no problems at all, apparently , though it's easy to say there are no problems if you keep your eyes firmly shut), not to mention the fact that all the major political parties are committed to bringing the age for self-id down to 16.

With every school and university well and truly captured, this is going to be very lucrative. They are currently charging €320 for an initial consultation over Zoom! They also appear to do surgery assessments over Zoom.

Worryingly they also offer autism assessment.

If there were any relevant laws (aside from Gillick) limiting clinicians in this area they would presumably have been raised when the Keira Bell Judicial Review took place or when HW was up in front of the MPTS.

I wonder if Miriam Gates would know the law about this.

Gender “care” does appear to be the wild west of medicine at the moment. It’s astonishing that it can continue. Presumably the only way to halt it is if the government steps in and legislates or if people start reporting clinicians to regulators or bring malpractice lawsuits.

Well that sounds dodgy as hell. The NHS wakes up to the dangers of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones, and a private clinic springs up to offer exactly that with zealous staff pushing drugs for money.

Nottingham gender clinic has Jon Arcelus - Co-Chair to develop the Standards of Care 8th edition, which includes the chapter on Eunuchs.

https://www.nottinghamshirehealthcare.nhs.uk/latest-news/trust-staff-leading-worldwide-development-to-provide-the-highest-standards-of-care-for-patients-in-transgender-health-services-1865

So this is a private practice set up to avoid the requirements as laid out in Cass to provide ethical evidenced medical care for children?
Can anyone set up private medical care directed at children like this? Are there no regulations?

I saw this yesterday and haven't had time to read in full, my first thought was how did they get this registered. Or can you just set up a health clinic and not have it authorised by if not national, local NHS?

I don’t think private clinics would need to be registered with the NHS but presumably they would need to be registered with the CQC. That’s how HW got her conviction not being registered with the HIW.