Genuine question - is it mostly biological women who have reservations about the trans movement?

These statements:

The issue of the Male Gaze is one I hadn't thought of but it's a really good point. I can't help feeling that having your male genitals removed does make a difference though.

and

Yup, no amount of surgery and hormones is going to replace the early socialization as female or male. Not possible.

confuse me. If you think that removing genitals in no way replaces male socialization then you agree with me about the Male Gaze. To me the male gaze is the presence of someone who is male, genitals intact or not, choosing to be in a women's space with the possibility of seeing women undressed, showering, whatever. His male upbringing will possibly excite many emotions: the warm glow of validation, the glee of seeing that which has been denied him in the past, and what has been coined "gender euphoria" (sorry to be crude, but I think this means boner). Penis or not, I say "no, thank you."

The Parliamentary debate in Westminster Hall was reassuring. Half a dozen ordinary men who happened to be MPs made careful, considerate and personal speeches covering their concerns and explaining the need to clarify biological sex.

I suspect four or five years ago they would not have thought the issue was important. They do now and are saying the right things.

They all happened to be Tory. I am sure there are an equal number of Labour men. They just need to find some courage.

Sorry, I wasn’t sure if it was the right way to phrase it! Trans child, child with gender dysphoria…dunno if these are more appropriate? I do agree with you though

My brother, who is one of the kindest and most thoughtful people I know, is now quite openly gender critical.

But it was sports that upset him first because he is very interested in sports, all sports, including women's sports.

It took me saying, "Yes, the sports thing is completely unfair, but is it worse than women being raped in prison by male inmates who identify as women?" to properly peak him.

Yes I think so. My son (20) gets it because of the sports context - and that's also the context where it is most acceptable to mention it.

Anything else and you are a TERF or a transphobe. But you can just about raise concerns about the integrity of womens' sport in his age group.

I would guess that men are less likely to give two hoots about it, because it doesn't really affect them so their single sex spaces and sports aren't under threat, but they also haven't been socialised to be kind and they know that they aren't going to get rape and death threats if they point out that if you have a penis you're a man. (See the difference in treatment between JKR/Maya Forstater and Richard Dawkins/Ricky Gervais, for example.)

Women, on the other hand, have more skin in the game which might make them gender critical, but are also victims of female socialisation and probably care a lot more about being liked/not being cancelled, which might make them TWAW.

Yeah, women are more likely to have strong feelings on the GC side but also more likely to be committed TRAs compared to men.

It's difficult to generalise.

Based purely on social media interactions, I would say that most people who care passionately about this issue are women.

In the gender critical camp, I would say it is probably 90% women, mainly left wing, mainly older, often lesbians or sexual assault survivors, with a few supportive male voices. The supportive male voices tend to be gay men, dads of daughters and men with a particular interest in sport.

In the TWAW camp, there are also a lot of women, again mainly left wing women, but as a general rule younger and more privileged, who mix in more "woke" circles and are stuck hard on "be kind". In some cases it seems to be a genuine desire to be kind, in others it seems to be more for reputational reasons (wanting to be seen as having the right opinions). The men who insist that TWAW are of a very similar demographic but often come across as though they have secretly always hated women and are now delighted to be able to bash women whilst pretending to be progressive at the same time.

I'd say the majority of the population doesn't care all that much but also doesn't believe TWAW.

@HothouseFlower Right. And, @proudmama23 non-binary as an identity is ridiculous. They are as male or female as the rest of us, and seem to forget that culturally in the West, gender-bending, androgynous dressing and style, breaking sex-based stereotypes etc., have been around for decades. Personalities, ‘looks’, style, likes and dislikes seem to be taken for some magical gender essence that literally makes them neither male nor female. It’s shallow and regressive thinking: ‘I don’t identify with the expectations of the social roles/clothes/hair associated with my bio sex, so I’m not a woman/man’, ‘Joan of arc wore men’s armour and cropped her hair so she was actually a they’.

@proudmama23 What do you mean when you say they "don't really expect others to make changes except allow them to participate in life eg my relative plays rugby for a (non league for fun) men's team, as a transman."

Surely the team has been expected to make changes i.e. to allow a woman on the men's team. I know men can fight their own battles over all this and who they let into their sports, toilets etc but what you say is contradictory.

And there's no such thing as "transfemale".

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar

I've had a fair amount of contact with trans people that notably mostly female-male. For the most part they just want to get on with life, aren't interested in the political side of things. They are proud of their trans or non binary status, but don't really expect others to make changes except allow them to participate in life eg my relative plays rugby for a (non league for fun) men's team, as a transman.

Trans women in my more limited experience seem to be a little pushier but still the one I know the best uses the disabled loo (unisex) at the pub and makes no fuss whatsoever about pronouns (it's very obvious that their biological sex is male but loves short leather skirts, really no big deal (they look quite frankly ridiculous imho but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that). DD has transfemale friends I've met who want to be called she and want gender neutral facilities but none are calling to use women only ones in my personal experience.

Just my experiences. I think the pushy types shout loudly making it hard for the many who just want to quietly get on with life.

I have a trans friend who had SRS years ago. When he first decided to 'become a woman' he visited a number of people to talk to them about it, including us. He said he had been born in the wrong body, he would now be living as a woman. This was 25+ years ago. He then explained, that he'd been seeing a psychiatrist for some years, and he understood full well that there was no such thing as born in the wrong body, but that it was just occasionally useful shorthand. Same with living living as a woman. He also understood, knew full well, that he would still be a man, but that he would be presenting differently, softened jaw, higher voice, longer hair, wearing traditionally women's clothes etc.

This understanding that he was, always would be, a man was one of the most important aspects of his psych evaluation which would allow him to go on to the next stage, taking female hormones, growing breasts etc.

This is why the TRAs wanted the process simplified if not removed altogether. They do not need to understand as they already do. They do not want to do anything other than ensure women know their place. Below them, servicing them.

This is why mediocre men want women out of the way, one less obstacle one more easy step up.

I love my friend. He's seriously unwell as a result of all the horrible procedures and fakery he's undergone, but he still feels like it was worth it. I just wish he'd not felt the need to do any of it it at all, just grown up believing he was wonderful however and whatever he was.

Just to add though, that I do accept that there are people that in some way don't feel like they fit in their gender. Effeminate, gay men, or women that just aren't the feminine girl/lady type (just examples). I wholeheartedly support their rights to live their lives as they want to, to find their happiness. If that means adopting a gender expression more typical of the opposite sex, hormones and even surgery, then I don't object. But I know you can't actually change sex. I know sex is real and important. I don't support self-id,the medical transitioning of children, or males in spaces protected for females on the basis of sex. I support the change to the GRA to make clear that sex mean biological sex. It leaves protection for the the gender reassignment characteristic, and people and organisations should generally be free to decide if their spaces and services are for people based on sex or gender.

I don't think it's entirely clear yet, but not to nearly the same extent, no. Women's sports, language, protections and social lives are at risk of being completely hollowed out.

No, as I said, men have far less to lose comparatively; but if this progresses, what about when heterosexual men wanting to date and marry women are publicly shamed and maybe even shunned for expressing a clear rejection of a TW as a potential partner?

How about when they lose job opportunities or promotions to a less-skilled and/or less-qualified TW because of 'positive discrimination' dictating that an opening is restricted to women only (which has interestingly not been considered a priority in all the years when people knew what a woman was, but now we have to centre and advance the new kind of 'woman')?

What about loving fathers whose children are propagandised and captured - and then (along with the children's mothers, of course) they're threatened with having them taken away from them if they don't agree to 'affirm' that they are something that they are not - much less if they're taken down the pathway of puberty blockers and eventually physical mutilation by influential and powerful people with an agenda?

I’d just like to add, in response to your use of the phrase “gender-distressed child”: this wasn’t a “thing” in the past. This “distress” has been caused largely by adults imposing an ideology on children and young people and by talking about this ideology as if it were a fact. These adults are responsible for any distress felt by children and young people, who should of course be free to grow up and make their own decisions on the basis of facts. The fact that gender ideology is now routinely part of the primary and secondary school curriculum is appalling.

In the majority of cases I know if it’s where someone has a gender distressed child, and the parent then emotionally blackmails others and weaponises the child, and this I think scares people into going along with that, I mean who wants to be responsible even obliquely for the suicide of a trans child, which these people will say those who don’t support the ideology fully are. And then they don’t twig that adult males “transitioning” is quite different and may have sexual/fetish/cheating in sports motives

I think your first paragraph is a bit harsh. Plenty of men have daughters, sisters, mothers and therefore DO have skin in the game, as @oldwhyno just above here points out.

My husband and I have clashed on this for a few years. To be clear I was TWAW and into the “born in the wrong body” stuff until I had an epiphany and realised what nonsense it was and also harmful. My husband accused me a couple of times of being a bigot eg when I told my son a tw cyclist was a cheat but he’s also woken up since the ridiculous Self ID bill that we had up here.

I'm a middle aged man who's been reading and occasionally chipping in on here for several years. I have more than just reservations about trans ideology, I think it's bloody dangerous. It's dangerous for the women in my life, including my daughters, and for young men including my son. I think there are plenty of men like me who feel the same, and more who would if they'd spent as much time as I have reading and watching things on the internet.

But there are also lots who've just been getting on with their lives hoping this is a fight they won't ever have to pick a side on. It seems clear to me that they mostly won't have that luxury forever.

I think the OP also asked about women supporting trans ideology, and IMO I think in a lot of cases it’s because they have a transwoman friend or friends, and they are perfectly lovely people that are fine sharing toilets / spaces with. Then they feel compelled to be TWAW either through naivety (my friend is fine therefore all TW are fine) or, not wanting to make the TW friend feel awkward, but hoping that they never have to be in situation with a not-Ok TW, and not giving a shit that other women WILL be put in situations with non-OK TW.

but do you really think that ordinary men don't stand to lose any status or privileges at all?

I don't think it's entirely clear yet, but not to nearly the same extent, no. Women's sports, language, protections and social lives are at risk of being completely hollowed out.

There’s lots of farm workers round here that know a lot more about nature than your average city champagne socialist.

Even some of the passionate, high-profile 'TWAW' proponents seem to instinctively know what kind of 'woman' they would instantly exclude when wanting to buy a woman's body to provide them with a surrogate baby. Thinking diving, just for one. They constantly preach 'inclusivity' and #bekind until it affects them personally.

Of the people I know, one female and one male are what I would call gender critical. I’ve not heard them use that term to describe their views but they’ve said things like “transgender is nonsense, the world’s gone mad” etc in that regard, so I’m inferring.

I am also friends with people of both sexes from ages 18-65, straight and lesbian/gay/bi, with children and without, living as the gender that aligns with their birth sex and a trans man who medically and socially transitioned over 15 years ago and a non binary person who came out as such ~5 years ago. These people are all supportive of people living (describing themselves, understanding themselves, physically presenting) in a way they most closely identify with, whatever that means to them. Although it’s not a common conversation topic, when the issue of “trans” comes up, it’s often on an individual level regarding the particular person being discussed, not on a societal level.

For the purpose of discussion of who makes up each viewpoint, within that group there are a range of typical political affiliations, nationalities and social classes.

Well, who is going to lose if trans women get everything they want? This is a men's rights movement. Only men will gain.

Obviously to a much lesser extent than women, but do you really think that ordinary men don't stand to lose any status or privileges at all? Do you suppose the TW activists will not continue to force their way to the top of the hierarchy, above both the women at the bottom and the men above them?

You may as well say that, because the Eton-educated self-appointed elites are all male, Trevor the school caretaker from Cwmbran will also reap all of those same benefits and privileges as they have, just by dint of also being male.

Men have no skin in this game of women's rights. What men think about biological men who think they're women in women's single-sex spaces is irrelevant.

Or should be, put unfortunately there's this little thing called patriarchy (rule of the father) which means that women aren't considered fully human.

So are you saying that you don't actually want decent men to care about women being thrown under the bus by this movement?