Jailing a mother of three - WTF

Absolutely right she should be in jail. She was 32-34 weeks pregnant when she took those tablets and lied to get them. She knew what she was doing. I’m in full agreement with women having control over their bodies and accessing abortions within the nhs guidelines. This woman murdered her baby. The baby could survive outside the womb and if she had done anything if the baby had been born at 32-34 weeks then she would be in jail for murder. I think they made the correct decision.

So they should be able to drink a bottle of vodka a day while pregnant?

This.

Come off it, we know what a baby is too. Are you seriously going to argue that it's position (in or out of a womb) that makes it a baby or a fetus? You might as well argue someone in the women's loo is a woman.

cyncope · Today 21:13

I do believe that pregnant women should have total power and control over their body including a being inside them”

Agree, until that “being” becomes viable.
If the child had been born alive despite her mother’s very late intervention and she had immediately killed it, she would be looking at a very long sentence.

There are limits for good reasons.

@cyncope

www.gov.uk/government/statistics/abortion-statistics-for-england-and-wales-2020/abortion-statistics-england-and-wales-2020

That may be of interest. Figures are around 20,000 a year which I imagine has increased since 2020.

It's not A-OK. It's the best of a very very awful and troubling set of options. Because removing personhood from women and making them into a walking incubator, subject to forced birth is the worst option.

Since when does feminism mean treating adult women like stupid little girls?? Forced birth? Please. She had unprotected sex. She didn't take emergency contraceptive. She had 12 weeks (at least) to get an abortion.

She then chose to murder her baby in a pretty horrifying way.

I could not have any less sympathy for that piece of shit if I tried.

How about we get real here. We can't change the fact that if we have unprotected sex and get pregnant there are consequences. And there are even choices these days. It's not "forced incubation" it's the natural result of your action and subsequent inaction.

When did feminism stop being about seeing women as future leaders and CEOs and become about infantilising the fuck out of us, to the point that we now apparently deserve sympathy because we're too stupid / emotionally unstable not to kill our own offspring?

I don't think jailing this woman serves anyones interests least of all the public. There's no public safety component and I find it difficult to see what rehabilitation aspect there might be. Is she supposed to be regretful by the end of 2 years? Have another child to make up for it? Maybe she will still be relieved she doesn't have another child to raise to 18 in what sounded like difficult circumstances.

I think it's okay and probably normal to be sad, upset, horrified etc. that she did something many of us wouldn't or feel we wouldn't do but I still maintain that criminalising her achieves nothing helpful.

And if that's what the woman wants to do then great.

regardless of where I stand on abortions and women's right to do what you want to your own body I can see no public benefit in this woman being sent to prison.

But at 39 weeks the baby could be removed immediately so no longer pregnant without killing it.

And that's even if they make different choices to me, make bad choices, do things I disagree with etc etc.

I do believe that pregnant women should have total power and control over their body including a being inside them.

A dangerous assumption.

Lots of parents harm their children. Some of them even think they are in the right and justified in their parenting decisions. Some of them dont even have that justification and only think of their own needs.

We rightly have choice in this country around abortion that usually meets the needs of mother and the unborn and later past the legal limit for medical reasons and thats how it should be. But not a blanket 'I can do anything with this being inside me because I want to and shouldnt be questioned'

This is really sad.
I agree that although I'm pro choice, post 30 weeks there could be a viable healthy baby. At this stage if someone doesn't want to or their mental health won't allow them to continue the pregnancy (or they had a natural stillbirth) they would still have to either give birth to or have a c section to remove the pregnancy. At this stage, unless it is medically necessary to protect the mother, I think there should be the option of removing the baby via early induction or c section and then giving the baby up for adoption immediately.
In this case though, I don't see the sentence benefiting anyone and think a house arrest would have been more appropriate

Women are oppressed by their reproductive biology. But they can also be shitty, dishonest people. I’m pro choice. But I don’t believe that human life doesn’t matter until it exits the womb. The hard thing is that it does. That’s why society has to try and work out some sort of balance. Killing a healthy 32-34 week old baby because you fucked around is not okay. I think that’s a perfectly reasonable feminist position.

I agree. I can't stand this narrative on MN that all women are perfect and wonderful people. They aren't, there are a lot of shitty women in the world, who do awful things, and I'm damned if I'm going to stand up for them simply because they are women! If women are so concerned with thei reproductive biology then some of them should take more care not conceive in the first place. I realise there are contraception failures, but not in most cases. Many women think they can do what they like, and if it results in a baby, oh well, let's just get rid of it. Appalling attitude.

Yes.

I'd assume she'd have her own extremely good reasons for whatever choices she makes at 39 weeks and it's none of my business.

I have a similar perspective- although im very pro choice, when it past 30 weeks and could definitely survive,

So you think a woman for example should be able to decide at 39 weeks to abort a healthy pregnancy? Why? Why not induce labour/c-section and put baby up for adoption? At 39 weeks the mother would have to either labour or have surgery anyway to get it out?

Often the allowing after 24 weeks in cases of disability is because anatomy scan is at 20 weeks, then any issues picked up may take time to investigate. Referals need to be made. I can't imagine in practice that abortions happen much later very often.

What percentage of abortions after 20 weeks in the UK are surgical?

I will be writing to my MP re this case. An appalling, inhumane decision to jail this mother. No public interest served. Late term abortion is so unusual in this country, that when it happens it happens for good reason.
I don't consider it my position to sit in judgement on desperate women, although many on this thread clearly do, and I can't describe the contempt I feel for those people tbh.
A woman's personhood and bodily autonomy should come before those of her unborn foetus or baby, and we're on a very slippery slope with this judgement

@TooOldForThisNonsense

so now babies (born/unborn) aren't considered as innocent? 🤦🏼‍♀️ It is relevant because that human life has not been given a voice/say/autonomy themselves yet others are arguing about the "personhood of the mother" therefore a reasonable counter response is to highlight the personhood of an innocent unborn child...this is because I value both lives.

Both surgical and medical abortions exist and some may not fall into the category of requiring a surgical abortion. Generally speaking late term abortions are surgical...this is not a lie nor am I spreading some kind of agenda.

I have no doubt about whether this woman in the article was in a horrendous dilemma and was tormented by the situation. What she did was still wrong, and she deserves the sentence given.

Late term abortions ARE legal. The only difference is this woman aborted a healthy foetus - legally the foetus can only be aborted if there is a threat to the mother or baby's life or severe disability.

There isn't a clear line drawn as to when an abortion becomes illegal - so really here we're just arguing about the details.

Personally, I don't think there should be one law for healthy foetuses and one law for disabled foetuses. Women should be able to end their pregnancy for any reason at any point.

My baby was born at around this gestation. My baby wasn’t just a foetus. She was a baby who needed very little intervention to live and thrive. My bump was a proper bump. It was quite clear I was in the advanced stages of pregnancy. What this woman did is no different to someone who kills the baby at birth, IMO. It’s only different because the corner ruled that the baby in this case never took an independent breath.

Pro-choice within the limits of the law.

drpet49 · Today 16:14
Binjob118 · Today 16:11

She purposely killed someone. Many would think her treatment was lenient. The law does usually punish such behaviour.

“This. I am pro choice but killing a 32-34 week old baby is awful. A jail term is appropriate.”

Agree with these posters.