Jailing a mother of three - WTF

I agree. Online consultations were brought in due to covid and there was debate about whether this should continue once the covid restrictions were relaxed.
It is fraught with problems.

Here is another case from last year.

Apparently either scans were done erroneously or not at all. I'd have thought the inquest should have ascertained whether a scan was done or not, quite easily established via medical records. It simply isn't possible to erroneously mistake a 30 week pregnancy for a ten week one in scan (and not very likely on physical examination/palpating either). Any sonographer making this mistake would be extremely incompetent

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/baby-born-toilet-dies-mum-26692076

No I haven't missed the point. If women were breeding machines for the state then every troublesome pregnancy would be aborted to save money.

I haven’t rtft but are you arguing that a woman should be able to use pills at any stage to end the life of the baby for example at 39 weeks

Or do you think it should be decriminalised with regulation in place to stop it happening past a certain date?

@awimbawaaay but it's not illegal for you to have a hysterectomy, and indeed you can have one on the NHS. It is too strictly gate kept imo for younger women but it is possible. It's probably possible to get it done privately too. Ditto for a breast reduction. Not illegal and private plastic surgeons will do it for you.

You seemed to have missed the point being made which was that pregnancy even for those women that want to have a baby can be difficult and deeply unpleasant. To force that onto women who don't want to do it and don't want to have a child is the point to consider.
Exactly

@TeaAndStrumpets that's not a great argument seeing as many people do put pets down that are a nuisance.

You seemed to have missed the point being made which was that pregnancy even for those women that want to have a baby can be difficult and deeply unpleasant. To force that onto women who don't want to do it and don't want to have a child is the point to consider.

Which is just another way of saying "you have to carry on being life support, suck it up, baby vessel".

But what is your argument that she should automatically have the right to abort? That a medical professional should have to do it? That the state should pay for it? Etc.

Men don't have periods, right, and I absolutely loathe them. I can't take hormonal contraceptive, but nor can I walk into a hospital and demand they give me a hysterectomy. Same with my breasts, they're a 28H and I've had back pain since I was about 15 years old. But I can't just walk in and demand they give me a breast reduction. There has to be an actual pressing medical need that's not just "I don't want this anymore".

If anything that's actually worse than the state refusing to terminate my 34 week old baby, because at least with the pregnancy I did have a choice at some point. With the other two "bodily autonomy" issues I was just born as the sex that menstruates and has breasts. I do genuinely just have to suck it up. I'm not being forced into having periods or breasts, that's just how I currently am. That's how we evolved.

But pregnant women can and do bond with their unborn child, they don't generally see themselves as mere vessels, they have an important job to do
Yes, but we're talking about the state seeing women as mere vessels as they're pregnant, not women seeing themselves that way.

I don't suppose your cousin was tempted to have her cat euthanised to save the bother and expense? Well it's a bit like that with babies. Yes it can be a thankless task, expensive and stressful at times. But pregnant women can and do bond with their unborn child, they don't generally see themselves as mere vessels, they have an important job to do.

Actually I have found your posts quite upsetting.

What about it disturbs you? The bit where I believe that women aren't reproductive vessels to be regulated by the State?

Re the devil being alive and well: I believe that the Church of Satan (a parody religion) have tried to use "religious practice" to provision abortions in "foetal heartbeat" states.

I think I'm well within my rights to express my thoughts and feelings. Thanks.

Oh give over with the excessive personal comments. It's not your view point and clearly it's one you find disturbing but there's no need for that kind of emotive comment.

I'm just copy-pasting from an earlier post here:

[Suggesting an early induction] is a legitimate argument and easily the best challenge to late abortion. The only sticking point is that premature delivery can cause life-long harm to the baby and this harm has to be taken into consideration. With an abortion, because the baby won't survive, that's not a concern.

The end result of having to consider the harm to the baby caused by a pre-term delivery is the woman being told "we won't induce you yet". Which is just another way of saying "you have to carry on being life support, suck it up, baby vessel".

This is a shocking and upsetting case😔

Yep and if the POS in question had thought about that she wouldn't be in jail for killing her own baby right now....

I can't just refuse to feed my children from this day forward because "motherhood is a gift and not a state-mandated obligation".

You can ask someone else to do it. I believe it's known as "putting your children in care" and "offering them for adoption".

That's not even comparable.
Nobody should be forced to give birth.

At that point the baby is coming out regardless. You're just arguing that the mother has a right to decide if it comes out dead or alive.

Seeing what Dcousin(S) went through for nearly three months in hospital is what crystallised the "no time limits" view for me. She was utterly miserable, bored out of her mind, paying out hand over fist for continuation of kennels for her Dcat back home, and this was for a baby that she wanted!

I sympathise as I was also in hospital for an extended period going through all the same things after the birth of my youngest. Because she was so young, she was classed as a patient too so I had to do all of the care essentially on my own including BF'ing for just over two months, whilst trying to recover myself, on a postnatal ward with a high turnover of newborn babies and families and balloons and being woken up constantly etc. I was severely depressed and not coping at all. But I don't think anyone would argue that would give me the right to terminate her life and absolve myself of all maternal responsibility. And I just can't logically comprehend how the difference of a few weeks justifies one but not the other?

I am pro-choice when the baby is not viable. So as early as possible really. But when it becomes so, it's a fine balance between the rights of the mother and the rights of the child that she chose to carry. There's no point raging against nature when you had ample opportunity to modify it beforehand.

@BodgerLovesMashedPotato - How is an 8, month pregnancy going to end except via the mother giving birth? Nobody is forcing this to happen, it's unavoidable biology. The only choice is over whether the baby is killed first or not. (And then a very real choice about whether she wants to be a parent or give the baby up)

Or forced to continue a pregnancy

@awimbawaaay And even if it was a "state-mandated obligation". How is that any different to the state mandating we don't kill each other in the streets? To the state mandating certain drugs are illegal? To the state mandating I'll be sectioned if I tried to slit my own throat? That I don't smother my children in their sleep? It's my body, right....?

That's not even comparable.
Nobody should be forced to give birth.

We're debating this case as a right to choose, and yet it appears the poor woman involved regretted what she did in a moment of desperation (to cover up an affair/keep her relationship) it appears. So maybe the right to choose had been made too easy for her? Maybe abortion isn't something to be taken so lightly that we post out pills to women after an online consultation? In this case it was her own recklessness that did the harm, but what if she'd done it under pressure from a partner who didn't want the baby, sat just out of sight on the online consultation making sure she did as she'd been told and lied about her dates? I think these are the real issues we should be talking about.

Motherhood should be a gift freely given, not a State-mandated obligation.

Seriously? I'll ask again - when did feminism become about absolving women of taking any responsibility for their action (and complete lack of!).

The world doesn't work like this in any other situation. I can't just refuse to feed my children from this day forward because "motherhood is a gift and not a state-mandated obligation". I think the courts would have something to say about it since I chose to have children and now I have responsibilities as a mother. She chose not to have an abortion and now she has a responsibility not to murder her very viable baby. That's not a state-mandated obligation fgs it's the natural consequences of her inaction.

And even if it was a "state-mandated obligation". How is that any different to the state mandating we don't kill each other in the streets? To the state mandating certain drugs are illegal? To the state mandating I'll be sectioned if I tried to slit my own throat? That I don't smother my children in their sleep? It's my body, right....? My offspring who depend on me to keep them alive, right....? I can do whatever I want because I'm a woman and that means my choices are automatically right!

Meanwhile back in the real world....