Sonia Sodha: How did NHS body get the law so badly wrong over its rules on same-sex care?

This organisation isn't actually in charge of running the NHS, but claims through membership to "represent" those working in the NHS.

And needless to say from that bases then thinks it can spout how things should or should not be done.

As mentioned in the Moral Maze thread re Kathleen Stock, one of the nothing to see here women are okay, is Matthew Taylor who seems to have had a career based on moving from on think tank to another. Some might wonder at his motives.

Most NHS operate on the basis of "dignity" and "safety", however the deliberate confusion of is there a difference between sex and gender has made some hospitals follow the Rainbow route.

Whilst I appreciate that it is something to have an article like this in the Guardian, the issue actually is why a membership organisation is being listened to anyway.

What is there status in relation to those who actually have the legal duty to run services.

As we know dating back years, and different governments, very few hospitals have been able to "justify" financially women's wards and men's wards. And as we know from shocking stories this has made women detained in mental health services exceedingly vulnerable.

And I dont think many if any local authority care packages allow for those needing to care to have it provided by someone of the same sex.

The worry is that this deliberate misrepresentation of the law, will be taken up for convenience sake as much as any political one.

Will be interesting to see after the outcome of Monday's debate whether they will have to with draw it.

Yes, this. My actual male gynaecologist has never used me to validate himself in any way. He's doing his job.

If he told me that he was now identifying as a woman, then that's a whole different ball game. I don't want to give access to my body to a deluded male talking crap at me. I can and will remove my consent because I am not his prop. I am a hospital patient, and some of the time I might be under sedation.

And offering the presence of chaperones is a red herring in policy terms given that they too could be men who say they identify as women.

This is about MY trust in the specific doctor/nurse and MY consent.

@sleepyscientist

Why should I face being dismissed and slurred by people who think like you, when the people who caused my PTSD were male? Their actions have affected me since I was a teenager.

Why should I feel I have to disclose the several instances of trauma inflicted by those men in order to be treated as fully human by people who think like you?

It is clear that you do not care about women.

If you care about the NHS consider that women who don't feel safe are more likely to delay seeking early treatment and thus cost the NHS more if serious conditions are not detected soon enough.

If you care about trans people consider that telling them that it is appropriate to deceive and trample on the boundaries of a marginalised group is deeply irresponsible. It is also deeply irresponsible (not to mention offensive) to tell trans people that being able to tell what sex they are is an act akin to violence.

Yes RoyalCorgi it's striking just how wrong they got it? What is the purpose of the guidance itself - to keep people happy and not take the NHS to any tribunal?

In a time when the NHS is struggling beyond belief should gender/sex even be considered is a bigger question.

Two of the biggest factor in safeguarding are age and sex.

Anyone who wants sex to be ignored, especially in health care setting, activity wants safeguarding to be ignored.

They'd hear what they don't want to hear @RoyalCorgi and that would never do, far better to just pontificate the Law as they want it to be.

Apart from the fact that the document is so wrong morally, it's surprising (if you're minded still to be surprised after the storm of shit that's hurtled our way over the past few years) that it's got the law completely wrong. Apparently they asked a lobby group called the LGBT Foundation for advice. Why not, you know, ask a proper lawyer? Crazy idea but it might just work.

Quite. All that clapping for the NHS rings rather hollow doesn't it.

And this is the thanks that women get for the lockdowns which women were disproportionately affected by. Told same sex care is a luxury.

@sleepyscientist Having experienced sexual violence I can say it does matter to me whether the clinician is male or female particularly if it is trauma therapist or when getting a smear test. You don’t have the right to consent for other women and girls. It’s great that you don’t care but many women do.

When I was in hospital, seriously ill, one of the most distressing aspects for me (apart from thinking I may die, and not being able to see my DC for a prolonged period) was the proximity of strange males to me while I was in a state of vulnerability and undress.

When well and in the normal world I give next to no thought to the men around me, but when frightened, lonely, sad and in pain, I was hyper vigilant and felt so incredibly exposed and vulnerable. The male visitors of my bay-mates caused untold anxiety for me - them watching me as I shuffled to the bathroom to change my pads from bleeding or seeing me braless due to the wires on my chest, them listening as my gynae and obstetric history was discuss on the ward round....

It scares me to absolute fxck that people are unable or unwilling to understand WHY that caused distress. WHY the sisters and daughters of fellow patients didn't make me feel the same way and WHY not being able to acknowledge that means that these conversations about the actual medical staff are even more difficult to have.

I for one have been made to feel even more anxious about my health problems by the widespread display of complete lack of compassion and respect for women's needs and boundaries in health care. Whether this guidance comes to pass or not, without clear and unambiguous statements from grown ups in positions of authority to refute the idea that women have no right to even request same sex provisions and care, the damage will be done. The trust women afford hcps and the NHS will be diminished. And rightly so.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever, sleepyscientist, that the right to same-sex care would have an effect on waiting lists? This isn't an issue of which consultant should assess your x-rays or prescribe your anti-cancer medication or remove your appendix. It is an issue of smear tests, personal cleaning, helping someone on or off a commode,etc, etc. You think women should compromise their personal dignity and safety for the zero-to-miniscule effect that might have on waiting lists?

Only if all guardian articles were as well thought out, I might actually start reading it again

And sex isn't assigned at birth, it's observed. Try sleeping less and sciencing more.

What if the HCP hasn't declared their sex assigned at birth to fellow staff, by forcing them to declare it to patients is outing them.

I don't think people should be able to conceal their sex from other people by law, therefore I don't think "outing" is a concern.

👏👏👏

@GailBlancheViola It shocks me somedays at how many people think women should have no say over who touches their body / provides their care.

Imagine being in a position where you are unable to see that many women, and men, may have a myriad of reasons for not wanting care from a particular member of staff.

Over the years I've refused care from both male and female healthcare staff for varying reasons, and my wishes have always been accommodated. Some times I've been able to state why I have issue with a staff member and sometimes I haven't wanted to disclose the reason. Yet they have still accommodated my wishes

It's frightening that this guidance is putting me in a position where my very valid reasons for not wanting care from particular staff members will now see me as bigoted and guilty of wrongthink.

It's my body. I get so say who touches it/ treats me.

It's not about "Gender, race, religion etc." it's about sex. Women and girls absolutely MUST HAVE the right to withhold consent from men who would be in a position to touch them and or see them naked. This is so basic I can't believe it needs saying.

The idea that it's possible to keep one's sex a secret from other humans in possession of sight and or hearing is patently laughable.

HCPs do not have the right to gaslight their patients. Male HCPs who indentify (whatever that means) as trans have no right to touch female patients who have requested female carers

Women are allowed to have, and enforce, boundaries.

You fucking what???

A luxury to have same sex care? Do you have a problem with the right to consent who touches your body?

No wonder we are in such a mess with attitudes like yours.

So what is your solution to the dilemma, if you believe that having to disclose your sex is a rights violation?

Are you expecting women who do not consent to opposite sex care to give away their right to refuse consent?

Personally, I think if you want to work in a caring role, where sex matters on some occasions, you have to be willing to acknowledge that your desire for privacy does not trump others’ right to dignity and fully informed consent.

The vulnerable person in this scenario is undoubtedly the patient and that important point seems to have been entirely ignored by those bringing these demands.

It’s the Observer, not The Guardian but they share webpages. It is confusing.

Yes I was hoping to see more supportive comments.

I was most surprised to find this in the guardian, and came to see whether anyone else was!

In such a time, spending time and money on working out how to pander to people's entirely unreasonable expectations that their pronouns and special status be recognised by everyone including people with dementia, other busy staff and sick patients is outrageous.

As is giving unnecessary physical treatments to people who are not physically unwell.

People who use patients to validate them for whatever reason don't belong in healthcare.
The NHS has a safeguarding duty and its failing.