Data on violence against trans people & women

There is massively limited data in the UK - the closest we have is hate crime statistics but that is not especially useful. The murder rate is even less useful since, aside from media reporting in high profile cases, there is no way of knowing if a murder victim was trans or not.

But we do have solid evidence from the US.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7958056/

Trans women were between three and four times more likely than cisgender women to experience violent crime.

I understand (but don’t agree with) those who argue that these stats should not affect the legal rights enjoyed by trans people. But those who are trying to pretend that trans people aren’t starting out at a higher rate of risk seem to be just wrong.

This is untrue.

That’s not what you wrote the statement regarding, as you well know. You were writing regarding all transpeople, not comparing rates of victimisation between two different groups of transpeople.

You will go to any length, say anything completely unrelated rather than own up to what you wrote:

Show me some evidence that trans people are vulnerable because they are trans (as opposed to because they are sex workers, as many TW in Brazil are).

I’ve seen the exact same bigoted BS written about my demographic. It’s depressing to see it weaponised and re-deployed against another group of human beings. You don’t have to like transpeople, but I’m clearly seeing more than dislike here.

The College of Policing has only recently updated their Code of Practice so that non crime hate incidents are only recorded against someone's name if there is a risk of violence. However, every perception based allegation of hate is still recorded and counted in hate statistics.

It's also the case that the police are point-blank refusing to remove vexatious nchi's from some women's records on the basis that they are under no legal obligation to do so.

That would be a perfectly reasonable comment, which I would be happy to make, if I believed it to be true.

If someone shows me that Group A - all women who are sex workers - experience high levels of violence, and Group B - all women who are not sex -workers experience little violence, I would be happy to point out that the reason that Group A experience high levels of violence is more likely to be their work than their sex. I wouldn't be blaming group A for the violence against them, I would simply be pointing out the association between their work and the violence.

Why is OK to argue that people are particularly at risk of violence if they are trans, but not to point out the same about sex workers?

If trans police officers experienced high levels of violence in their job, would it be wrong to link their work to the violence they encountered? You seem to be attributing some pejorative association to sex worker, which is interesting.

I'm only responding for lurkers, btw - I am under no illusions that yours is a good faith argument.

The College of Policing has only recently updated their Code of Practice so that non crime hate incidents are only recorded against someone's name if there is a risk of violence. However, every perception based allegation of hate is still recorded and counted in hate statistics.

It's also the case that the police are point-blank refusing to remove vexatious nchi's from some women's records on the basis that they are under no legal obligation to do so.

That would be a perfectly reasonable comment, which I would be happy to make, if I believed it to be true.

If someone shows me that Group A - all women who are sex workers - experience high levels of violence, and Group B - all women who are not sex -workers experience little violence, I would be happy to point out that the reason that Group A experience high levels of violence is more likely to be their work than their sex. I wouldn't be blaming group A for the violence against them, I would simply be pointing out the association between their work and the violence.

Why is OK to argue that people are particularly at risk of violence if they are trans, but not to point out the same about sex workers?

If trans police officers experienced high levels of violence in their job, would it be wrong to link their work to the violence they encountered? You seem to be attributing some pejorative association to sex worker, which is interesting.

I'm only responding for lurkers, btw - I am under no illusions that yours is a good faith argument.

You said it, the least you can do is own what you said. Imagine you saying

Show me some evidence that women are vulnerable because they are women as opposed to because they are sex workers...

that sort of statement should not be said about any group of human beings.

And yet it's almost like the statements "Group A are particularly vulnerable to violence" and "Group A are responsible for violence against them" are two different things.
🤔

Those “hate crimes” include everything from violence to misgendering, though…

You cannot compare the hate crime statistics, as there is no record of crimes against women being deemed as a hate crime, because our lives are not important enough to be included in these stats.

I agree too.
As for evidence that transpeople are vulnerable to violence, you need only look at hate crime statistics. Saying that transpeople are victims of violence doesn’t mean that women aren’t victims of violence too.

As for who is the biggest victim of fatal violence, it’s men.
So there is really no point jockeying for second or third place.

It is also cold and disgusting to say some transpeople bring violence on themselves by being sex workers. If you wouldn’t say that about a woman who is a sex worker, you shouldn’t say it about a transwoman either.

The focus shouldn’t really be on who is dying, but who is doing the killing, and that is men.

Those “hate crimes” include everything from violence to misgendering, though…

You said it. Right here
Show me some evidence that trans people are vulnerable because they are trans (as opposed to because they are sex workers, as many TW in Brazil are).

That is a prejudicial conjecture that any violence the experience is because they are sex workers. Do you know who makes up the vast majority of sex workers? Women. Biological women. If you start victim blaming due to a job that most are forced into for the violence then suffered, do you really think your tactic won’t be re-applied to biological women who are sex workers? The old ‘who cares she was a whore’ that feminists had to fight against for centuries. You’re really going resurrect that and weaponise it against transpeople and not even think, hey this could bite biological women back too?

There is not a shred of evidence that trans people are particularly vulnerable
I referred you to the hate crime statistics collected by ONS.

When you say 'hate crime', do you mean actual crimes with a hate aggravator, or do you mean the 'non crime hate incidents' which can mean absolutely anything, require no proof and can be reported by absolutely anyone?

Because the latter are meaningless bullshit.

It is also cold and disgusting to say some transpeople bring violence on themselves by being sex workers.

Yeah, nice try. No one has said that. It is, however, incontrovertibly true that sex workers are extremely vulnerable to violence, so that is likely to apply to any who are trans.

I know some PPs think they’re being clever by pretending to be GC, then being shocked by the arguments being made (not the actual points being made, of course, but a warped misrepresentation of them). In fact, these PPs are just usefully illustrating the weakness of the ‘vulnerable trans’ argument. There is not a shred of evidence that trans people are particularly vulnerable, so all these PPs have got are misrepresentation and distraction. We see you.

I agree too.
As for evidence that transpeople are vulnerable to violence, you need only look at hate crime statistics. Saying that transpeople are victims of violence doesn’t mean that women aren’t victims of violence too.

As for who is the biggest victim of fatal violence, it’s men.
So there is really no point jockeying for second or third place.

It is also cold and disgusting to say some transpeople bring violence on themselves by being sex workers. If you wouldn’t say that about a woman who is a sex worker, you shouldn’t say it about a transwoman either.

The focus shouldn’t really be on who is dying, but who is doing the killing, and that is men.

There is no evidence that transpeople do not experience violence is the other way of looking at things

As PP said , it's a difficult area to get data on for various reasons

I agree with @PermanentTemporary.

I can recognise that people who identify/present as trans do experience transphobia (which might overlap with homophobia), which can sometimes be violent, without agreeing that this means TWAW, or that women should centre their victimhood, or whatever.

There is a whole lot of space in between 'making this women's problem to solve' and outright denying it's even anyone's experience.