Data on violence against trans people & women

You are defending the OP’s claim that women are more vulnerable to violence than transpeople. So forgive me for presuming you also held this opinion.

There is evidence that transpeople face higher than average rates of violence in the U.K., but there is not sufficient evidence to compare that to women as a whole.

Evidence from similar countries and this country is not meaningless nonsense. Those are the words of a person who holds tightly to an opinion while disregarding all evidence to the contrary.

What data exists indicates that transpeople are more vulnerable to violence than the average person

There is no data to suggest that in the U.K.

We do, however, have cast iron data that men who identify as women are far more likely to be incarcerated for sexual offences than other males, let alone women.

Women aren't included in hate crime stats.

We have evidence of the homicide rates of women and of transwomen. That's fairly stark.

Yes, they have a higher homicide rate per million. But that just shows they are generally more violent than we are.

However the patterns in terms of which demographics are targeted or are more vulnerable to violence ARE directly comparable. You can see this by comparing hate crime statistics.

I am not the one making assertions.

Claiming transwomen face higher rates of violence than women in the UK is based on no evidence.

Evidence from different countries with different cultures, legal systems, histories, societal factors etc is meaningless nonsense.

Yes. What data exists indicates that transpeople are more vulnerable to violence than the average person. What is missing is the data to be able to discern whether transpeople are more or less or as vulnerable as biological women.

As it is, the answer isn’t “it’s not true, women are more vulnerable” as there is no evidence even hinting at that.

Yes they do, so where is your evidence?

Assertions or arguments need to be based on evidence.

There is some data for the UK but it is insufficient.

It would be ludicrous to imagine that we can simply ignore entirely data from another country with very similar attitudes to trans people.

As I said - I understand but disagree with the argument that higher risk for trans people should not afford them specific rights. But the determination by some to totally dismiss the idea that that higher risk exists, and dismiss any evidence that that is the case, is psychopathic.

I'm only responding for lurkers, btw - I am under no illusions that yours is a good faith argument.

Thank you.

The US is not a reasonable comparator with the UK when it comes to violent crime. How many mass shootings has the UK had this year?

Talk me through why it wouldn’t work*

Obviously in this hypothetical world where we think sex offenders will be bound by the rules of who is allowed use which toilet when they decide how to carry out their crimes.

In that hypothetical world, when someone appears to be biologically male in the women’s toilets says, when challenged, ‘I’m a trans man and I have to use the women’s bathroom’ what happens then?

the US is a reasonable comparator country.

What utter nonsense. Not even worth getting into a discussion about, although more patient women than me are making very good points.

But if everyone must use bathrooms in accordance to biological sex, then any man can simply claim to be a trans man.

Hmm, like that will work. This is not the 'gotcha' you seem to think it is.

Doesn’t your position do the exact same?

If trans women can use women’s bathrooms then you claim any man can use them simply by claiming to be a trans woman.

But if everyone must use bathrooms in accordance to biological sex, then any man can simply claim to be a trans man.

What conclusions do you draw from these data, @TeaKlaxon ?

Rates of incarceration for sexual offences within the population as a whole:

Women: 3 per million
Men: 395 per million
Men who identify as women: 1916 per million

I saw an appalling clip of a transwoman being beaten up by a group of men in the US and I would say the nature of the violence was different from what would have been done to a woman. Not private sexualised control, but almost proud public punishment of a sexual minority.

Isn't this what comparable though to what generally happens with male-on-male violence? Maybe I'm wrong, as it's an impression I have, no data to back it up, but I perceive male-on-male violence, involving strangers, as being many-to-one, or sometimes many-to-many in a group fight, often started over someone wearing the wrong football shirt, or looking/being gay, or whatever. Male-on-female violence is more likely to be one-on-one and is often sexual violence.

There aren't imperfect data for the UK. There are no data.

The absurdity would be to draw any conclusions in the absence of evidence.

Cracks me up when people roll out this old fable.

Let’s say for one second it was true, who are TW at risk from? Men.
so they want to use female spaces for safety. From men. But they are men no? No, they’re not because they self ID as a woman.
Right so, self ID is accepted.

OK even if I could get on board with TW using female spaces, they also want to self ID. So now they’ve diluted the “safe” space anyway as they’ve opened up the space to any man, not just TW. They’ve opened the door to any man who wishes to exploit self Id for his own pleasure.

so the whole argument starts to fall apart. You want to be safe but you can’t be safe because you’re allowing the very people you’re scared of to fucking follow you through the door.

if TW are scared of being hurt by men why do they also advocate for allowing any men to follow them into our spaces.

I mean we know the answer of course.

That is nonsensical.

We have a tonne of evidence that US crime patterns are different from the UK: not just as regards gun crime but all crime. And not in a straightforward way - some types of crime are commoner here. The whole picture is totally different.

We also have a tonne of evidence that the US is culturally very different: gun control, the death penalty, abortion rights, State provision of healthcare, positive discrimination, maternity rights, employment rights, broadcast media, judicial system, political system, policing, attitudes to international affairs etc etc etc.

We have no evidence that things are the same in the UK and US, as regards the socioeconomic situation of trans people or levels of violence.

So lots of evidence that things are different generally. No evidence that things are the same for trans people, economically or for crime. And yet you want us to accept that things are the same.

That makes no sense whatever. It's like saying, I know we have evidence that Mars has almost no atmosphere and no discernible lifeforms, but we should go ahead and assume it's the same as the Earth anyway, because they are both planets. Total logic fail.

As for the evidence in the UK, we don’t have the data. I wish we did. But until we do we have to do the best we can with what we have.

And the reason we don't have reliable data is? Muddy the waters regarding sex and gender and this is what you end up with and who wanted to muddy the waters with TWAW?

Also, it is remarkably strange how you want demographics split when it suits what you are trying to prove and use worldwide data rather than specific country data when it doesn't suit your argument.

Again, stop using 'cis' the word you are searching for is women no prefix required.

Conclusion (C) is patently absurd.

There is no area where, absent perfect data, we would dismiss entirely somewhat relevant data to draw reasonable inferences with appropriate health warnings.

Pretending that relevant but imperfect data doesn’t exist is a nonsensical approach to empirical evidence.

No. Because we have reliable UK data, and because we can point to specific factors that mean the UK’s gun crime stats are different.

Neither is the case here.

On the contrary in fact, polling over the last couple of days shows that among a large number of countries, attitudes toward trans people are very similar in the UK and the US. So there is actual positive reason to believe that the US stats might be similar (in trend if not in rate) in the UK.

TeaKlaxon · Today 21:26

B) trans women in the US face higher violence and in the absence of better UK data and a compelling reason to assume the UK is dramatically different, we should start from a place of assuming broadly the same trends hold in the UK

So should we assume the U.K. suffers the same trends in, say, school shootings, and gun crime in general?

We also have a different demographic, a different society, and we have a better safety net in regards to poverty and ill health ( in dire straights though those services are).