Data on violence against trans people & women

Don’t put words in my mouth, I haven’t said any of that.

While I can see the motivation behind introducing 'hate crime' aggravators, at least in theory, I'm unconvinced that the law should operate in terms of punishing feelings to this extent.

Plus it's becoming increasingly obvious these laws are being used vexatiously.

Don't forget the ad homs. It's all one big gish-gallop to the bottom, really.

I agree, Alison. It's a way police forces can puff themselves up pointlessly while utterly failing on more important measures.

At the end of the day, where does 'hate crime' get us?

It was meant to capture an escalation in order to prevent racist attacks, and it has become a methodology of recording misgendering. It is now a worthless activity that has ended up in women being subject to the same scrutiny and 24/7 observation because someone accused them of posting a meme, it is being used as a weapon to shut women up rather than actually stop murders. It is a failed experiment and should go.

I agree - their conclusion seems to be it’s too big and complicated not that it doesn’t exist (I didn’t read the section on age but imagine reasons are similar). There seemed to be a range of responses from various Women’s organisations, most seemed to say that recording misogyny would send a societal message but that women are so ill served by the current criminal justice system that it might make things worse.

that’s a pretty shit précis of what they said, so no twisting my words hen

its a criminal waste of time arguing about trans hate crimes when women are dying at the rate of a few a week in the UK - 81,000 globally in 2020, half of them by a family member or partner

Personally, I think that hate crimes are bad law. It should be a recognised aggravating factor to have harassed/threatened/injured someone because of race/gender ID etc, but this should be accounted for in sentencing.

However, if we are stuck with them, sex absolutely should be one of the victim categories. The whole purpose of hate crimes is to signal that some crimes are particularly socially divisive. This should include crimes against women (and, where relevant, men), if the crime is motivated by the victim's sex. In the past, the Law Commission has recommended the same.

Having sped read the law commission report there is a massive section on why they didn’t include misogyny - they acknowledge problem with VAWG but think it needs to addressed in other ways so not being covered by hate crime in no way means that you aren’t part of a demographic that suffers from them

It's like there is a manual. As I said, it's a very familiar pattern.

Make a series of inaccurate and contradictory claims.

When challenged, the process is

1. Re-assert without evidence
2. Provide 'evidence' that does not, in fact, evidence your claims
3. Make other posters responsible for disproving your claims
4. When they do disprove your claims, say that they haven't
5. When things start to get a bit desperate, throw anything in to distract

If you'd just posted all that first, it would have saved you a lot of arguing!

I've got some interesting anecdata for you. I've worked in prisons for over 10 years, and at a conservative estimate, I've probably encountered at least 300 murderers. I tried working out the exact number once but I got bored.

Of those men though, the vast majority had murdered other men. Like two-thirds. The rest had murdered women, mainly women they were in relationships with but a hefty chunk of stranger murders.

I am only aware of TWO cases where the victim was a transwoman. One of those was a TW working as a prostitute in London, which is a desperately high risk occupation in itself. The other TW victim was in a relationship with the person who murdered them.

My information is strictly anecdotal as I say, you can't extrapolate trends from it, but I assure you that police MG5s and PM reports always mention the biological sex of the deceased person, and definitely mention if they are trans, because its likely to be a material factor. There fortunately aren't that many TW or TM being murdered. In my view, that's a good thing - but some TRAs seem to view it as a problem. It's almost as if they WANT their own community members to be hurt, to support their claims to be "the most victimised ". Its really not healthy.

There aren’t accurate figures for homicides, it’s not just me saying this, it is ONS
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/transphobichatecrimeintheuk

Release date:
22 December 2022
FOI Ref: FOI/2022/4673
You askedThe below is a freedom of information request for the following questions:

• How many transgender people were murdered in the UK in 2021?
• How many transgender people were murdered in the UK in 2021 as a direct result of a transphobia?
• How many transgender people have been murdered in the UK over the past 10 years?
• How many transgender people have been murdered in the UK over the past 10 years as a direct result of transphobia?
• As of the year ending March 2022, how many of the recorded 4,355 transgender hate crimes by police in England and Wales resulted in prosecution?

We said
Thank you for your query.

Unfortunately, we do not hold the statistics you have requested.

Our statistics on homicides in England and Wales come from the Home Office's Homicide Index, which consists of police recorded homicides and currently shows breakdowns by sex. You can see a breakdown of homicides by age and by sex in Table 4 of the Appendix Tables for our recent publication, Homicides in England and Wales, year ending March 2021.

Furthermore, we do not hold any data on homicides as a direct result of hate
crime but you can find a breakdown of homicides by apparent circumstances and relationship of the victim to the principal suspect in Table 15 of our Appendix Tables.

For more information on the Homicide Index and police recorded crime, The Home Office can be contacted at [email protected].
In regards to your question on prosecutions of hate crimes, the Home Office produce an annual publication titled 'Hate Crime, England and Wales'. Our most recent Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) estimates of hate crimes within the gender identity strand can be found in Tables 7, 8 and 9 of the Hate crime, England and Wales, 2019 to 2020: appendix tables from the combined years of 2007/08 and 2008/09 to 2017/18 to 2019/20. It is worth noting this data is limited due to small numbers in the survey and figures which limit our ability to publish reliable estimates.

The 2021 to 2022 release does not include CSEW estimates due to the suspension of the face-to-face CSEW in March 2020. For more information on the suspension of the CSEW, please see our User guide to crime statistics for England and Wales: March 2020.

Within the same Hate Crime, England and Wales releases, Home Office publish the number of hate crimes recorded by the police in England and Wales, by monitored strand, 2011/12 to 2021/22 in Bulletin table 2a of the Hate crime, England and Wales, 2021 to 2022: data tables. This includes the transgender hate crime strand.

Unfortunately, we do not hold information on prosecutions. However, the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) are primarily responsible for data on offenders, prosecutions and convictions in England and Wales only. They publish statistics on a quarterly basis which may be of use to you. If you have any questions, the MoJ can be contacted at [email protected].

There was a woman on a recent Terf Talk Tuesday from the North East of the UK.

Her friend with her two young kids, in the changing rooms.

Two men with their penises out.

She asked them to put them away and their response was to ask the kids if they wanted to suck their penises.

The council run leisure centre refused to call the police or remove the men because the crime would be logged against the woman or against the leisure centre, not against the men. The centre said it would be her word against theirs.

The reason that misogyny is not considered a hate crime, or is ever logged, is because if women reported every instance of misogynistic abuse, harassment, threats, actual violence then the police would never do anything else. They said so when the idea was first suggested.

It is because hateful conduct against females is so rampant, that it isn't recorded and thus there is no evidence it exists. Rape is virtually legalised in the UK these days, even when rapes are recorded or otherwise solidly evidenced the perpetrators get let off.

And then you get absolute plums saying 'it never happened/what was she wearing/what about the men' all the livelong day.

It’s in black and white, that’s why hate crime legislation was written and how groups are assessed for inclusion. You are all like 🫣 refusing to see what is in front of your noses.

Doesn’t matter, as I know what you are doing, it is there in black and white that demographics are not eligible to be covered under hate crime legislation unless they suffer more severe harms due to being disproportionately targeted for criminal behaviour.

Disproportionate as in more than the average person.
And I have posted the report showing Black people are 10x and Asians 2x more likely to be victims of homicide (the worst violence there is)

We know that no one is consistently recording the gender identity of homicide victims so no idea what their rate is compared to average.

We know that roughly 20% of hate crimes against transgender people included violence in the form of assault against their person.

Meanwhile, you have posted nothing showing they are not more vulnerable than average.

They didn’t include transpeople to be covered by hate crime legislation for no reason. They had to meet the criteria as a group.

I also relish the inconsistency between @ReleasetheCrackHen’s insistence that there no accurate figures on crimes against transgender people, and her equally vehement insistence that hate crimes can only be hate crimes if the victim group is at demonstrably higher risk than the general population.

Knight’s move on the pigeon chessboard.

Either you don’t understand the difference between this guidance and your claim, or you are being wilfully disingenuous. I will let readers decide which.

Quite.

Yes it is exactly my claim.

Disporportionate targeting of = higher rate of victimisation than average

No. As @MissLucyEyelesbarrow showed, the data doesn't bear that out in the case of Asian victims of crimes against the person. White people are more likely to be victims.

Either you don’t understand the difference between this guidance and your claim, or you are being wilfully disingenuous. I will let readers decide which.

I just did!
OMG! What is up with you lot?

Again, can you show some evidence to back up the claim you made?

Hate crimes exist because those demographics have been shown to have a higher rate of being victims of violent crime than the average person. A demographic is not eligible to be covered under hate crime legislation unless this is the case.

I guess they can't.

Yes it is exactly my claim.

Disporportionate targeting of = higher rate of victimisation than average

Which then= they are suffering additional harm.

Sigh. It is like feeding baby birds in the nest
”Hate crime laws developed in England and Wales - and in most other comparator countries- due to concern about the disproportionate criminal targeting of, and additional harm caused to certain groups in society.”

She literally pointed exactly that out to you. It is not the same as your claim.

Sigh. It is like feeding baby birds in the nest
”Hate crime laws developed in England and Wales - and in most other comparator countries- due to concern about the disproportionate criminal targeting of, and additional harm caused to certain groups in society.”
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1041169/Hate-crime-report-accessible.pdf

You would know, being a grandmaster at it