Data on violence against trans people & women

Thanks - pretty well summed up.

Excellent point!

Thanks for the summation!

TL;DR - some of us find it hard not to correct mis and disinformation ...

Agree with this. If women and girls reported all sexual harassment, misogynistic, aggressive comments and street harassment , then the figures would be off the scale. People of both sexes will get comments and insults if they dress in an unconventional way for their sex. As an unconventional teenager who had an arty and unconventional group of friends, we just ignored this or had various snappy responses. When this is addressed at males dressing in stereotypically female clothes, this gets recorded as a hate crime.

Identifying the correct risk factor 'should not be said about any group of human beings'?

What?

PP is just pointing out multiple causative factors. TWs in other countries are disproportionately represented in sex work. Therefore it's very likely the heightened risk comes from that, rather than the fact that they're TW.

The fact that you'd take that as hateful or victim-blaming is bizarre

Christ on a bicycle! Is this non-debate still going on? The OP has probably binned her DP and run off to Malaga with his best mate by now.

Early pps pointed out that there are no meaningful data in the UK. This led to the suggestion that we should use the 'high quality ' data from the USA as it is a good comparator with the UK. This was rejected on the grounds that the USA crime profile is very different from that of the UK so it isn't a valid comparator. After a bit of to and fro, the USA position was abandoned in favour of the ONS hate crime survey which, we were assured, held all the answers.

This led to a massive argy-bargy. The survey didn't contain anything about women. Oh yes it did, you're not reading it right. It doesn't matter how you read it, sex isn't a category for hate crime so nothing can be captured. We then moved onto what sort of crime could be a hate crime. Only violent crimes are counted. No, the list contains non-violent crimes. You're reading it wrong. Harassment is on the list and isn't a violent crime.

We were treated to a few other detours along the way such as murder rates for TW sex workers in South America, murder and personal crime rates for British Asians and, my personal favourite, why crimes against women aren't ever recorded as hate crimes.

Congratulations to the poster who gamely argued that TW are more likely to suffer violence than women without any visible success and to the couple of posters who exposed each fallacy as it was presented.

Research indicates that 62% - 73% of transgender people have experienced harassment and violence because they were identified as transgender.

But I thought no-one could tell, aren't we told ad nauseum that TW have been entering female only spaces for decades and been around just living their lives and no-one has noticed.

So is the contention that transwomen somehow miraculously expect to encounter lower levels of harassment and violence than biological women? And think themselves picked on when that turns out to be untrue? Sounds like something men need to fix rather than women need to accommodate.

In terms of incidence, violence against men is higher than against women. And violence against men who say they're women tends to be similar as other men. Where it isn't, it's because of other factors - eg in South America there are huge numbers of "transwomen" in prostitution - increased risk the same as women involved in it.

In South American the risk of murder for transwomen is orders of magnitude lower than that for other men, and also lower than that for women. Worldwide ‘transwomen’ are at lower risk of murder than other men, or women.

Research indicates that 62% - 73% of transgender people have experienced harassment and violence because they were identified as transgender.

And what percentage of women have experienced harassment and violence because they are women?

75% of younger women report harrassment in the preceeding 12 months alone.

You get four points, Hen, for the chutzpah of making false assertions with such conviction.

As far as facts and evidence goes - nul points.

That was a non crime hate incident. Not a hate crime

You cannot be prosecuted for a non crime.

She won on appeal, and the conviction was overturned.

Why was she convicted in the first place?

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/620221

Government response to a petition asking to make deliberate misgendering a crime (my bold):

We can't publish petitions when the request is something that's already happening or something that has been announced since you started your petition.
We think your petition is covered by Government or Parliament action already. If you'd like something else, you could start a new petition clearly explaining what it is.
The act of deliberating mis-gendering someone is already a hate crime, if a court determines that this act demonstrated hostility based on that person's transgender identity, or that it was motivated by hostility based on their transgender identity.
You can find out more about which acts constitute a hate crime here: https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crimee^^.^
You might like to sign this petition which calls for a related action:
Create a specific offence of stirring up hatred on grounds of Gender Identity: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/6178422^
We only reject petitions that don’t meet the petition standards.

There is no specific crime of "hate speech". She would always have been prosecuted under harassment or malicious communications.

Kate Scottow was prosecuted for misgendering on Twitter.

That was a non crime hate incident. Not a hate crime.

She was prosecuted for a campaign of sustained harassment. The crime would have been harassment, not hate speech. The misgendering was the very least of why she was prosecuted. She was persistently sending abusive messages towards an individual and alleging that the transgender person was a sexual deviant.

She won on appeal, and the conviction was overturned. So at the end of it all, what she did was not a crime, but a non crime hate incident.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Scottow-v-CPS-judgment-161220.pdf

As for Caroline Farrow, from what I understand an investigation is ongoing as to a separate campaign of harassment that she may or may not have done. She hasn’t been charged nor is any prosecution proceeding against her at this time.
https://www.fahrenheit211.net/2023/06/09/20799/

Any more “examples” of hate crimes merely due to “misgendering” that you’d like to attempt to float my way?

“And still, after all these posts, no one has shown any evidence that trans people in the U.K. are at greater risk of violence than women.”

Because we have integrity and acknowledge the data isn’t available to show anything beyond the fact that transgender people do experience higher than average rates of crime and violence.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/crime-info/hate-crime/context-and-characteristics-hostility-towards-sexual-orientation-and-transgender-identity
External research confirms essential characteristics in terms of prevalence, the nature of offending, its impact and responses to it.

• Research indicates that 62% - 73% of transgender people have experienced harassment and violence because they were identified as transgender. This included verbal abuse, threatening behaviour, physical and sexual assault.
• Despite high rates of hate crime or incidents towards transgender people, a high proportion goes unreported.
• A study in 2012, found that four fifths of respondents are fearful and avoided some situations with half saying that they avoided public toilets and gyms.
• Research indicates that 91% of transgender boys and 66% of transgender girls experienced harassment at school, leading to depression and isolation.
• A report from 2015 found that fear of being treated poorly leads victims of hate crime to avoid reporting to authorities. According to the same research, 88% of LGBT people had experienced some form of hate incident.

More likely to be victims of any crime:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/17/trans-people-twice-as-likely-to-be-victims-of-in-england-and-wales
“Transgender people in England and Wales are twice as likely to be victims of crime as cisgender people, official figures show. Data from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) shows more than one in four trans people (28%) experienced crime in the year ending March 2020, compared with 14% of people whose gender identity is the same as the sex they were registered at birth.

Transgender people have highest increase in hate crimes
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63157965
”The number of hate crimes recorded by police in England and Wales has risen by 26% - to 155,841 in the year to March 2022, Home Office figures show.
More than two-thirds - 109,843 - were racist hate crimes.
But crimes against transgender people saw the biggest rise, with 4,355 reports, up 56% from the previous year.”

The very CPS guideline posted above came into existence after a threat to prosecute Miller. Kate Scottow was prosecuted for misgendering on Twitter. Caroline Farrow is being prosecuted at the moment.

Some ‘hate speech’ is recorded as a non- crime incident. It does not follow from that that no hate speech is treated as a crime.

And it’s irrelevant to a comparison of the rates of violence against women vs trans people anyway, as crimes motivated by sex are not included in hate crimes.

So the entire discussion of hate crime rates and what they do or do not include is irrelevant to the question in the OP. And still, after all these posts, no one has shown any evidence that trans people in the U.K. are at greater risk of violence than women.

All this is meant to distract from that fact that ‘hurty tweets’ are not hate crimes. They are non crime hate incidents if they a specifically against and directed towards an individual. Therefore despite what is claimed on this thread, Misgendering and tweets about gender critical beliefs are not hate crimes, and are not included in hate crime statistics.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/non-crime-hate-incidents-code-of-practice/non-crime-hate-incidents-code-of-practice-on-the-recording-and-retention-of-personal-data-accessible

“Non-crime hate incidents (NCHIs) are recorded by the police to collect information on ‘hate incidents’ that could escalate into more serious harm or indicate heightened community tensions, but which do not constitute a criminal offence.“

“A non-crime hate incident (NCHI) means an incident or alleged incident which involves or is alleged to involve an act by a person (‘the subject’) which is perceived by a person other than the subject to be motivated - wholly or partly - by hostility or prejudice towards persons with a particular characteristic.”

“On 20 December 2021, the Court of Appeal published its judgment in the case of Miller v The College of Policing [2021], which focused on the recording of NCHIs. The Court concluded that the recording of an NCHI interferes with the right to freedom of expression, and that additional safeguards were needed so that “the incursion into freedom of expression is no more than is strictly necessary”.

Example of exactly what was claimed to be a hate crime and in hate crime statistics is not only note a hate crime, it is also not even a non crime hate incident:

Example C:On Twitter, an individual (the subject) expresses their belief that a person’s biological sex is more important than self-identified gender, and that biological sex should be prioritised when decisions are made about access to single-sex spaces. The tweet is not directed at any individual. However, another individual (the complainant) believes it to be transphobic and reports it to the police. The reviewing officer assesses that the perception of hostility is irrational - the expression of a view that conflicts with those of other people is not an indication of hostility without further evidence. The subject’s views are an example of a person exercising their freedom of expression to outline a personally held belief and a reasonable person would accept the discussion as a contribution to a lawful debate, even if they found it offensive or disagreed with it. An NCHI is not recorded, and the personal data of the subject is not recorded. The personal data of the subject (in the form of the subject’s twitter handle) that was initially recorded by the call taker is also removed from the policing system.

A reminder that (as per the CPS guidelines posted upthread), any crime can be a hate crime.

Hate crime encompasses all crimes (if motivated by hate) and it is therefore impossible to have a criminal offence of hate speech that is distinct from hate crime.

And that, it’s irrelevant to a comparison of the rates of violence against women vs trans people anyway, as crimes motivated by sex are not included in hate crimes.

So the entire discussion of hate crime rates and what they do or do not include is irrelevant to the question in the OP. And still, after all these posts, no one has shown any evidence that trans people in the U.K. are at greater risk of violence than women.

''The Police and CPS have formulated a definition of hate crimes and hate incidents, with hate speech forming a subset of these.''

Speech is different from physical assault, since it can include acts as diverse as online communications, or shouting at someone in the street.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom

Yes that is exactly what you have done. You have various made various claims without evidence that were then disproven. You claimed:

1. Transpeople are targeted for violence due to being sex workers, not because they are trans.
2. Patterns of violent crime in the US are totally different from the UK- you (Homicide rates per capita are not a pattern of crime.)
3. “There aren't imperfect data for the UK. There are no data.” In regards to violent crime against transpeople.
4. That Asian people are half as likely as white people to be victims of a ‘crime against a person’ which was actually you trying to pass off a survey regarding “personal crime” (including theft,etc) whereas for actual crimes against the person, ie assault, homicide, the real statistics based on recorded crimes show that they are twice as likely as white people to be victims.
5. Repeatedly claimed that Hate Speech is a type of Hate Crime when in the U.K., Hate Speech and Hate Crimes are actually distinct.

No, her figure was not for crimes against the person, but personal crimes.

Crimes against the person are crimes associated with violence, murder, harrassment- those that result in physical or mental harm.

The fogure she posted was actually a survey, not a statistic of recorded crimes, and for personal crimes which included violence plus nonviolent crimes like theft/fraud.

My statistic was for actual recorded violence against Asian people vs white people and it shows Asians are twice as likely to be murdered than a white person.

Dear Tango
I was curious about actual figures too. See Tish Still's article in UnHerd she found between 2008 -2017. Basically 2000 women are murdered for every trans woman in the UK
A lot of hype lately saying how violence against trans has increased (some of this 'violence' is misgendering). When my sister was 11 she was accosted by a man as she walked home across a golf course fortunately some witnesses arrived and she got away. When I was 22 I was sexually assaulted walking home from work. I fought him off. My 21 year old daughter was spiked in the arm at a concert last year.
3 incidents in just one family.

The media don't care about violence against women; it's too ordinary for them.

I don't doubt more trans women are being attacked by men but why do we have to pay the price. Please watch Megyn Kelly on YouTube 'Why I am Done with preferred pronouns' She sums it up beautifully.