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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Challenging D&I at work

37 replies

BuffysBigSister · 06/06/2023 19:31

We received a link to our company's first global Diversity & Inclusion survey. I work in an industry with a very poor gender pay gap (and getting worse probably rather than better). There was no question on sex. I was asked if my gender identity was male, female or other (or prefer not to answer). I was kind of expecting this.
I emailed to ask how the language had been decided on as it was incorrect and I didn't feel I could answer the question honestly. I mentioned protected characteristics, Equality Act.....
The response was underwhelming. Apparently they consulted a wide variety of groups on language and took external legal advice. I have asked if they can share the names of the groups they consulted.
I am surprised how anxious I am feeling about this and I feel fairly secure in my job. I keep asking myself if I am just making a fuss and should just go along with it - its not a compulsory survey but I want to share my opinions. Just wondering how other people felt about "outing" themselves at work as a terfy trouble maker. (the person who runs the survey is very much a fan of queer ideology so will have pegged me as a terf)

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Gcfemale · 12/06/2023 19:52

Sunseeker100 · 07/06/2023 12:58

Same here, might even be the same one. Our women's network changed to gender equality. So we have numerous networks for all sorts of letters, but none for women

Hmm given your username, wouldn't be an insurer would it? Would love to find others that feel the same as can't believe that all the women at work are happy about the changes but whilst those who are not GC can find kindred spirits, not the same for those that are, so we remain isolated and seemingly lone voices. I have challenged a couple of things at work with HR and D&I but they were relatively minor...but equally I need the job, so am definitely not bringing my whole self to work.

BuffysBigSister · 12/06/2023 19:24

I had a very calm & civilised call with our global head of D&I. They had consulted with an industry D&I project and our regulator. Our regulator, the FCA, has been in hot water itself about sex/gender on boards so I wasn't overly positive but the Investment Association has done some good work on collecting diversity data and I quoted from that a lot. The bad news is that the legal consultant is a Stonewall Top Global Firm. Which explains a lot and I did say I thought they had been misadvised on the legal terms in the UK.
She understood my concerns & said the data is not going to be used for pay gap reporting or anything, more a temperature check. I mentioned my concerns that we were losing senior female staff and I wanted to be sure we were taking that seriously. I asked why they didn't provide boxes for people to self-describe and she said they had to try to reduce the volume. Also it was a challenge to produce something global. I understood and appreciated a lot of what she said.
I did also say that I was unhappy with the gender identity question as the term itself was not defined and could be misunderstood. Also, I said I had no gender identity and male and female were definitely NOT identities. Mentioned today's debate about sex/gender in the EA2010.
I said I wanted to contribute my views because I think its important to get more women into our industry but felt I couldn't answer that question. She encouraged me to skip the question and give honest feedback in the last section. That's probably what I will do.
So, it wasn't earth-shattering. I don't think I won any concessions but I think I did at least let them know I am watching and I am knowledgeable. And I am not afraid to speak up. I also dropped in that I had often discussed these issues with our CEO so she knows I will keep speaking up.

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Jammymare · 12/06/2023 07:54

Hope the call goes well today

DemiColon · 08/06/2023 22:24

tourdefrance · 08/06/2023 15:06

I agree with you and I really hope that the newsletter is no-one's single source of parenting information.

But the LGBT network have been very 'helpful' in offering information etc and they have previously covered Black History Month - how to talk to your child about racism etc, so I can see how it has ended up like this.

That seems weird and inappropriate to me as well.

It's no wonder people seem to have generally inappropriate boundaries.

lanadelgrey · 08/06/2023 20:29

The post conversation just to ‘summarise/clarify’ the main points of the chat is a v useful device. Unless refuted at the time then the assumption is that your record stands. Not watertight but would make it hard for someone to deny later that a conversation took place or that you had woefully misunderstood or proceeded on a complete misunderstanding

BuffysBigSister · 08/06/2023 20:19

crunchermuncher · 08/06/2023 10:16

Not to derail but hopefully to encourage:

I have just had moderate success with getting my workplace to rescue sex and gender separately (although I bet sex is still self ID)

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4737603-possibly-just-outed-myself-as-gc-at-work?page=4

Thanks, will have a read through this over the weekend in preparation for Monday's call. It's really encouraging seeing other women have had the courage to challenge these things. I feel like more and more of us are standing up and asking questions.

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SideWonder · 08/06/2023 18:33

it feels like there was 5 minutes when women were finally being listened to. And then all this gender identity ideology came in and shut us up.

This is not a coincidence, is it? Grin

eastendmyfreind · 08/06/2023 15:26

I hate how all of these seemingly well intentioned groups at work go way beyond the scope of what should be called 'work' and enforce some kind of hierarchy of guilt based on aspects of people's character that can't be controlled - ie race, class, cultural background, sexuality etc. And on company time too!

tourdefrance · 08/06/2023 15:06

I agree with you and I really hope that the newsletter is no-one's single source of parenting information.

But the LGBT network have been very 'helpful' in offering information etc and they have previously covered Black History Month - how to talk to your child about racism etc, so I can see how it has ended up like this.

DemiColon · 08/06/2023 14:54

tourdefrance · 08/06/2023 10:24

I’ve just had an email from our parent network telling us they will be doing Pride in the next newsletter including how we can support our kids and ‘learn together’. I’ve written back suggesting they include Transgender Trend in the interests of balance and not just one side of the debate. I’m work friends with the co-chair (she/her) so will be interesting to see how she reacts.

Generally avoid the topic as much as possible in work and am wfh next week on a day I’d usually be in the office to avoid it the Pride coffee and cupcakes event.

Am supportive of LGB but it’s all about the T now.

Maybe I am odd but to me it seems completely weird to be getting parenting information - particularly on something like this, from my workplace.

I could maybe see an article about something like picking nurseries, or work life with kids. But stuff about kids and Pride makes about as much sense to me as my employer giving me articles about getting my kids ready for confirmation classes.

Zodfa · 08/06/2023 11:39

Legal advice from.whom? I doubt the people who think men are women are capable of complex intellectual tasks like interpreting the law.

eurochick · 08/06/2023 11:00

I'd focus on the risk to the business. If anything will get their attention, that should.

tourdefrance · 08/06/2023 10:24

I’ve just had an email from our parent network telling us they will be doing Pride in the next newsletter including how we can support our kids and ‘learn together’. I’ve written back suggesting they include Transgender Trend in the interests of balance and not just one side of the debate. I’m work friends with the co-chair (she/her) so will be interesting to see how she reacts.

Generally avoid the topic as much as possible in work and am wfh next week on a day I’d usually be in the office to avoid it the Pride coffee and cupcakes event.

Am supportive of LGB but it’s all about the T now.

crunchermuncher · 08/06/2023 10:16

Oh ffs record not rescue!

crunchermuncher · 08/06/2023 07:22

Good luck Buffy we are all with you!

You can always follow up the call with a 'helpful' email to summarise the main points. You could couch that in terms of 'checking my understanding' if that's more comfortable.

BuffysBigSister · 07/06/2023 19:06

I've got my call with the head of D&I on Monday. Will spend the weekend prepping

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Manderleyagain · 07/06/2023 14:25

I'm sure you already know the work on data that has been done by Alice sullivan and others. But in case you haven't seen it this will be useful.

https://twitter.com/SexMattersOrg/status/1442780028295696385

At least one org has withdrawn guidence which recommended not collecting sex data. I don't know if they've replaced it.

https://twitter.com/ProfAliceS/status/1480172894437183488

https://twitter.com/ProfAliceS/status/1480172894437183488

PriOn1 · 07/06/2023 14:05

Is it worth making a recording of the conversation, Buffy?

Sunseeker100 · 07/06/2023 12:58

VeryUninspired · 06/06/2023 19:57

Feeling your pain. I joined a gender equality group at work thinking it was for women but it’s gender ideology and there is also an lgbt group!

Same here, might even be the same one. Our women's network changed to gender equality. So we have numerous networks for all sorts of letters, but none for women

FictionalCharacter · 07/06/2023 11:53

BuffysBigSister · 06/06/2023 20:52

I've worked in the same sector for over 25 years and it feels like there was 5 minutes when women were finally being listened to. And then all this gender identity ideology came in and shut us up. My company has only cared about D&I since the intro of gender pay gap reporting. But now D&I doesn't really seem to care about sex equality, or think that's an issue. Out last D&I presentation was on how women & LGBTQI can be allies and help each other. No-one considers that sometimes our interests might be in conflict.

I feel the same. Women were finally getting somewhere, then everything we fought for was taken away from us. Where I work EDI is 90% focused on “supporting” T and NB people, how to be an ally, etc.

BuffysBigSister · 07/06/2023 11:36

When I say "informed challenge" I mean informed by all the intelligent debate I have seen on here over the last few years

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BuffysBigSister · 07/06/2023 11:27

Our Head of D&I (she/her) will already have flagged me as a terf for asking the question. It's a reasonable question politely asked, happy to talk to her about it. At this stage I just want these folk to know they won't have it all their own way, there will be challenge - and it will be informed challenge

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MrsOvertonsWindow · 07/06/2023 11:23

They always want a call rather than an email don't they? And I'd put money on their side of the call being recorded with a list of questions designed to out you as a Terf!
We're in this mess precisely because of secret discussions, lack of transparency and lies unable to be challenged.

BuffysBigSister · 07/06/2023 11:22

Yes, exactly my thoughts. Maybe the "wide variety of groups consulted" wasn't such a wide variety but they don't want to put that in writing

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