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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Fuck Oxfam

834 replies

DismantledKing · 05/06/2023 21:55

Anyone seen the tweet by Maya tonight about this little animation by Oxfam? Here’s the link:

https://twitter.com/mforstater/status/1665817901327085568?s=46&t=U7-xooKExwmFQ8mivn72lw

as I said, fuck Oxfam.

Fuck Oxfam
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69
Datun · 07/06/2023 00:36

Fireyflies · 07/06/2023 00:26

The latter, sadly. I mean Oxfam is a big organisation and I don't doubt many within it wish they hadn't put that advert out. But the tone from the PR department is dismissive of any upset caused any clearly focused on reassuring trans people and allies that they have their backs. Someone posted a copy of their email sent to staff which concludes by saying they realise this publicity may have upset some of their trans colleagues and here's a support line for them, etc etc.

Got it. Thanks. You'd think, wouldn't you, that the pushback on Twitter, from MPs and the prime minister would be ringing a few alarm bells.

MerlinsLostMarbles · 07/06/2023 00:31

ResisterRex · 06/06/2023 22:48

It's a simple "happy pride month" message on Twitter and it is not even remotely comparable to the Oxfam debacle. To suggest as much is quite wrong. But is their Insta using Nazi-era imagery to depict "TERFs"? Have they trampled all over the memory of the dead by removing what absolutely looked like JKR's poppy? Have they shown Peppa and / or friends with mastectomy scars? Have they accused parents of online and offline hate?

The message includes the flag with the trans colours. That's bad, right?

Fuck Oxfam
Clymene · 07/06/2023 00:28

Brilliant post @mommyisbest. I have to confess that I hadn't even thought about the fact that pluralism is what underpins their aid. But they don't extend that to their staff or supporters.

It feels deeply racist to me.

Fireyflies · 07/06/2023 00:26

Datun · 07/06/2023 00:14

Can I ask, do you get the impression that they just blundered in in a sort of virtue signalling way and kind of wish they hadn't?

Or are they more committed than that?

The latter, sadly. I mean Oxfam is a big organisation and I don't doubt many within it wish they hadn't put that advert out. But the tone from the PR department is dismissive of any upset caused any clearly focused on reassuring trans people and allies that they have their backs. Someone posted a copy of their email sent to staff which concludes by saying they realise this publicity may have upset some of their trans colleagues and here's a support line for them, etc etc.

Datun · 07/06/2023 00:14

Fireyflies · 06/06/2023 23:56

Just been having a look at some of the discussion about all this over on Twitter (just search Oxfam if you want to see the full range) Firstly, it's clear that 80-90% of the content is critical of Oxfam.

Secondly, there's some effort on their part to apologise and backtrack. But it's very guarded and reluctant. They say the woman was not meant to be anyone in particular (which I find unconvincing) but don't even show any understanding of the term terf bring a sexist slur, and their advert as fuelling hatred. They just reiterate support for trans people - clearly worried about losing their support of they're seem as caving in in the slightest.

Can I ask, do you get the impression that they just blundered in in a sort of virtue signalling way and kind of wish they hadn't?

Or are they more committed than that?

dimorphism · 07/06/2023 00:14

The fact that this is the first Pride Month being played out on Twitter without all the 'terf' accounts being silenced is probably a massive wake up call to these organisations that actually most people are not in agreement

Really good point. It does demonstrate how the climate of fear and extreme levels of suppression of free speech on platforms such as twitter has lead to a total silencing of debate for a long time and to ever greater emperor new clothes style gaffes from supposedly professional organisations (which suddenly, don't look professional at all).

ScrollingLeaves · 07/06/2023 00:06

WhiteFire · Today 23:34
mommy Thank you for your insightful post

Thank you from me too, mommyisbest · Today 23:31, I found your reasoning based on your own beliefs, heritage and experience incisive as well as illuminating and inspiring.

PotteringPondering · 07/06/2023 00:04

Boiledbeetle · 06/06/2023 23:28

The fact that this is the first Pride Month being played out on Twitter without all the 'terf' accounts being silenced is probably a massive wake up call to these organisations that actually most people are not in agreement. Suddenly not all responses are happy and gushing. It must be rather a shock to discover that this year these companies can't get away with this shit.

Yes! Hadn't made that connection.

Fireyflies · 06/06/2023 23:56

Just been having a look at some of the discussion about all this over on Twitter (just search Oxfam if you want to see the full range) Firstly, it's clear that 80-90% of the content is critical of Oxfam.

Secondly, there's some effort on their part to apologise and backtrack. But it's very guarded and reluctant. They say the woman was not meant to be anyone in particular (which I find unconvincing) but don't even show any understanding of the term terf bring a sexist slur, and their advert as fuelling hatred. They just reiterate support for trans people - clearly worried about losing their support of they're seem as caving in in the slightest.

TheBiologyStupid · 06/06/2023 23:53

mommyisbest · 06/06/2023 23:31

I’m a British Pakistani Muslim woman. I give to Oxfam and endeavour to make donations to Oxfam as well as shop at my local store in preference to other charity shops. I have a strong affinity to Oxfam because of its history of identifying need and tackling it.

I will no longer be supporting you. You have allowed your charitable purpose to be hijacked. What kept me loyal to Oxfam despite recent difficulties is that it is a charity that finds what needs to be done and seeks solutions without fear or favour. There is no scope for ideology in this. Everyone who is needy benefits. No questions are asked about people’s religious or political affiliation.

As a minority- ethnically and religiously- I depend on pluralism in order to express my culture and my religious beliefs. I don’t require anyone to validate my beliefs. I just need society to accept that I have my own beliefs. I don’t need anyone to say Salaam to me or call me sister and I don’t impose this on anyone. By the same token I don’t want to be forced to validate other people by modifying language to include concepts I don’t accept ie describing myself as cis or finding which pronoun suits me based on my sexuality or masculine/feminine leanings.

In discouraging the use of words such as male or female, modifying expressions that reference human biology, replacing one word for another such as prostitution for sex worker, you have pursued an ideological agenda which has nothing to do with your purpose or aims.

You have decided to champion that ideology in favour of other ideologies. When challenged on your dogmatic stance you have taken an unpluralist view by stating that it is the best ideology as it is, in your view, the most inclusive.

In saying this you disregard most people in the world who come from collectivist cultures where identity stems from family and community and not from Western notions of individualism where identify stems from pronouns or sexual orientation or gender identity.

That is not to say that collectivist cultures do not have active and vibrant LGBT people. But they are not asserting this in the same way and never have. To see all these LGBT people in such a monolithic way is to reduce and simplify even those people you think you are including. This is a form of cultural imperialism. Other countries have strong LGBT heritage and it’s not the same as yours.

Your latest attempt at evangelising, has led you to depict those of a different ideology (who believe biology is more important than socially constructed gender) as ugly, older women termed TERFS. Where will you go next? Will you depict Muslims similarly after all the Quran does not mention gender identity once? If you are to be consistent I don’t see that you have any choice.

For all these reasons I won’t have anything more to do with you.
Shazia

Powerfully said.

dimorphism · 06/06/2023 23:49

Thank you Shazia, great post. Your point about pluralism is very important. What's ironic is that in all these charities I bet they're mainly staffed by middle class white people. They've self appointed themselves as the moral arbiters of the 'right' opinions - the very opposite of pluralism.

soddingspiderseason · 06/06/2023 23:47

mommyisbest · 06/06/2023 23:31

I’m a British Pakistani Muslim woman. I give to Oxfam and endeavour to make donations to Oxfam as well as shop at my local store in preference to other charity shops. I have a strong affinity to Oxfam because of its history of identifying need and tackling it.

I will no longer be supporting you. You have allowed your charitable purpose to be hijacked. What kept me loyal to Oxfam despite recent difficulties is that it is a charity that finds what needs to be done and seeks solutions without fear or favour. There is no scope for ideology in this. Everyone who is needy benefits. No questions are asked about people’s religious or political affiliation.

As a minority- ethnically and religiously- I depend on pluralism in order to express my culture and my religious beliefs. I don’t require anyone to validate my beliefs. I just need society to accept that I have my own beliefs. I don’t need anyone to say Salaam to me or call me sister and I don’t impose this on anyone. By the same token I don’t want to be forced to validate other people by modifying language to include concepts I don’t accept ie describing myself as cis or finding which pronoun suits me based on my sexuality or masculine/feminine leanings.

In discouraging the use of words such as male or female, modifying expressions that reference human biology, replacing one word for another such as prostitution for sex worker, you have pursued an ideological agenda which has nothing to do with your purpose or aims.

You have decided to champion that ideology in favour of other ideologies. When challenged on your dogmatic stance you have taken an unpluralist view by stating that it is the best ideology as it is, in your view, the most inclusive.

In saying this you disregard most people in the world who come from collectivist cultures where identity stems from family and community and not from Western notions of individualism where identify stems from pronouns or sexual orientation or gender identity.

That is not to say that collectivist cultures do not have active and vibrant LGBT people. But they are not asserting this in the same way and never have. To see all these LGBT people in such a monolithic way is to reduce and simplify even those people you think you are including. This is a form of cultural imperialism. Other countries have strong LGBT heritage and it’s not the same as yours.

Your latest attempt at evangelising, has led you to depict those of a different ideology (who believe biology is more important than socially constructed gender) as ugly, older women termed TERFS. Where will you go next? Will you depict Muslims similarly after all the Quran does not mention gender identity once? If you are to be consistent I don’t see that you have any choice.

For all these reasons I won’t have anything more to do with you.
Shazia

Thank you Shazia for such an eloquent and intelligent comment x

BaronMunchausen · 06/06/2023 23:40

The video was produced by Falana Films, a "woman-led" company in Bangalore.

What is happening at a woman-led company that it can output such vile misogyny?

And why are the sinister male characters south and east Asian?

Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/reel/2495472930613697/

WhiteFire · 06/06/2023 23:34

mommy Thank you for your insightful post.

Datun · 06/06/2023 23:31

Boiledbeetle · 06/06/2023 23:28

The fact that this is the first Pride Month being played out on Twitter without all the 'terf' accounts being silenced is probably a massive wake up call to these organisations that actually most people are not in agreement. Suddenly not all responses are happy and gushing. It must be rather a shock to discover that this year these companies can't get away with this shit.

That's a really good point.

mommyisbest · 06/06/2023 23:31

I’m a British Pakistani Muslim woman. I give to Oxfam and endeavour to make donations to Oxfam as well as shop at my local store in preference to other charity shops. I have a strong affinity to Oxfam because of its history of identifying need and tackling it.

I will no longer be supporting you. You have allowed your charitable purpose to be hijacked. What kept me loyal to Oxfam despite recent difficulties is that it is a charity that finds what needs to be done and seeks solutions without fear or favour. There is no scope for ideology in this. Everyone who is needy benefits. No questions are asked about people’s religious or political affiliation.

As a minority- ethnically and religiously- I depend on pluralism in order to express my culture and my religious beliefs. I don’t require anyone to validate my beliefs. I just need society to accept that I have my own beliefs. I don’t need anyone to say Salaam to me or call me sister and I don’t impose this on anyone. By the same token I don’t want to be forced to validate other people by modifying language to include concepts I don’t accept ie describing myself as cis or finding which pronoun suits me based on my sexuality or masculine/feminine leanings.

In discouraging the use of words such as male or female, modifying expressions that reference human biology, replacing one word for another such as prostitution for sex worker, you have pursued an ideological agenda which has nothing to do with your purpose or aims.

You have decided to champion that ideology in favour of other ideologies. When challenged on your dogmatic stance you have taken an unpluralist view by stating that it is the best ideology as it is, in your view, the most inclusive.

In saying this you disregard most people in the world who come from collectivist cultures where identity stems from family and community and not from Western notions of individualism where identify stems from pronouns or sexual orientation or gender identity.

That is not to say that collectivist cultures do not have active and vibrant LGBT people. But they are not asserting this in the same way and never have. To see all these LGBT people in such a monolithic way is to reduce and simplify even those people you think you are including. This is a form of cultural imperialism. Other countries have strong LGBT heritage and it’s not the same as yours.

Your latest attempt at evangelising, has led you to depict those of a different ideology (who believe biology is more important than socially constructed gender) as ugly, older women termed TERFS. Where will you go next? Will you depict Muslims similarly after all the Quran does not mention gender identity once? If you are to be consistent I don’t see that you have any choice.

For all these reasons I won’t have anything more to do with you.
Shazia

Boiledbeetle · 06/06/2023 23:28

The fact that this is the first Pride Month being played out on Twitter without all the 'terf' accounts being silenced is probably a massive wake up call to these organisations that actually most people are not in agreement. Suddenly not all responses are happy and gushing. It must be rather a shock to discover that this year these companies can't get away with this shit.

Datun · 06/06/2023 23:24

Damn, that's a good article.

She's fuming

Grammarnut · 06/06/2023 23:23

PotteringPondering · 05/06/2023 22:36

I know everybody bangs on about Nazis, and it's usually a ludicrous overreaction.

But that image really is in the style of Nazi caricatures of 'evil' Jews. The evil, scheming, hateful TERF.

FFS.

Also apparently the woman is intended to be JK Rowling - according to spikedonline.

Bubblyb00b · 06/06/2023 23:16

@Fireyflies I tried Bud once ages ago but it tastes awful, I used to drink cheap carbonised larger piss in my younger days but this was beyond pale...

and - I agree with you, I cant believe the video, Its almost too awful to comprehend, so offensive and evil - no idea how it fits with the whole "love" message Pride is supposed to be about.

WhiteFire · 06/06/2023 23:15

Back in the real world people boycott companies for many different reasons, I have great admiration for people who have boycotted Nestle for nigh on 40 years (for example), to stick by your principles for many years is an honourable act. I, personally, boycott Amazon - it is actually irrelevant to others why I do this, and the same applies for companies and organisations that others may choose to boycott.

I am not sure that this is quite the gotcha that you thought it was.

RufustheSpecuIatingreindeer · 06/06/2023 23:08

firey

same here…in theory I’ve been boycotting them for years as its such a nothing drink

and im fairly positive dh stopped our oxfam direct debit following the Haiti news

Fireyflies · 06/06/2023 23:04

Bubblyb00b · 06/06/2023 22:46

@MerlinsLostMarbles literally no one drinks Budweiser in the UK, its fucking horrible. No idea what "Bud Light" is, and who gives a f anyway?

Bud light is like watered down Budweiser. I tried it once a it's lower calorie but it's cheaper just to mix your own lager and water combo! I've not drink it in years so boycotting it wouldn't really have had any impact. Oxfam, on the other hand, have had £50 a month from me for about 5 years, but no more.

I really am upset that they see fit to put out such a nasty image to incite hatred against feminists (and Asian men, who also feature, as presumably they're all trans-haters too)

Catiette · 06/06/2023 22:59

Merlin’s shadow-boxing. I don’t think they actually need any input - they could happily continue the thread alone at this rate.

You’ve forgotten your own boycott - POW!

You‘re trying to avoid ALL association with the Pride flag on principle - BAM!

New invented straw man - BANG!

Easy-to-refute hyperbole no one ever said - KAPOW!

(I‘ve got 70s Batman cartoons flickering through my head now.

— Holy cow, Rob Merlin!)

Boiledbeetle · 06/06/2023 22:59

AlisonDonut · 06/06/2023 22:45

About 20 years into Nestle boycott

Never had Macdonald's, never bought Primark. In fact I've spent a lot of my life avoiding anything branded apart from heinz.

Oxfam hurts so much as I always bought clothes and eco stuff from there. Still wear some of them. But hey ho. Now I'm in France it doesn't make a lot of difference.

I had to go and do some maths but it's 35 years for me! Bloody hell.

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