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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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463 replies

AnotherDayAnotherView · 02/06/2023 10:39

https://twitter.com/stevenmarkryan/status/1664437068838363141

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DemiColon · 05/06/2023 12:04

Merrymouse · 05/06/2023 08:00

Also I think Walsh's belief that on average boys and girls are different in their interests is more generally agreed with by the general public than the GC belief that it's just an oppressive social construct, so his approach was always going to be more appealing.

it’s the underpinning of gender ideology and the idea that you can be born in the wrong body.

I am not so sure that argument is really clear. After all, it's not the political right where you see parents and individuals falling prey to this in large numbers.

I also think that GC feminists really over-estimate the extent to which people have a hard belief in gender being something that could or should be abolished,while at the same time tending to over-state how rigid people, especially conservatives, think that gender roles should be or are.

I think the vast majority of people believe what GC feminists seem to think is a conservative position: that on average, there are some temperamental and behavioral differences between male and female humans (just like most other mammals,) which are biologically based, but also that there is quite a lot of overlap.

That differences like reproductive role and physical differences also tend to lead somewhat to different ways of behaving and thinking, because we are embodied beings.

And that taken together, these temperamental differences, and the consequences of things like pregnancy and motherhood, do lead to an overall somewhat different set of social processes that are common around the life of men and women. That doesn't mean there aren't lots of variation, or that people are compelled to do anything in particular, or that anyone should be barred from any particular career choices or whatever. It just means that there won't ever be a society that isn't in some way shaped by the differences that come out of reproductive role, and that is ok, and can even be in some ways supportive.

Matt Walsh might be somewhat on the harder end of this spectrum, though I don't think spectacularly so, and in many ways I suspect his view is closer to that of the vast majority of moderate people than the GC view is.

These people, and I would include Matt Walsh because he is really taking what is a perspective that comes out of the Catholic view of the body-soul unity, don't see that these differences mean you can "be born in the wrong body." Because that's backwards - the differences, although they become culturally reflected in various ways, are essentially the differences that tend to emerge from the kinds of bodies people actually have. It's not some kind of Platonic abstraction. A woman who likes car mechanics or Rush is not a man just because some of her interests are more typically shared by men, or even a woman who really hates being around children. It's about having a female body, which may mean she is less likely to be a big Rush fan, but would certainly mean she is necessarily subject to different material realities than a man particularly around her reproductive role and all the things that touch on that. And that's significant, and for many many women will shape their lives and decisions differently than if they were male.

This idea that conservatives and especially religious conservatives think gendered social roles are somehow separately set down from embodied causes and are really arbitrary is really mistaken. That kind of dualism is from a quite different source, I think, and not one particularly exclusive to the political right or conservative thinking - it seems to belong at least as naturally to the left, and the idea that the sexes can completely transcend embodies differences is a significant example of it. It's part of why people like Walsh tend to see feminism as having led people down a garden path.

ScrollingLeaves · 05/06/2023 11:45

Re: the need for more mental health care for teens, unfortunately this can be part of the problem:

This is what the Royal College of Psychiatrists tweeted last February.

We're delighted to announce that we have officially been awarded a @stonewalluk Gold Award, having been ranked the 90th top

MalagaNights · 05/06/2023 11:37

I think feminsts were talking about this long before anyone else and have been the ones responsible for pushing the debate into the open and I'm very grateful for them for that.

They were certainly the ones who raised my awareness years ago.

But now it is in the open they should be pleased men and people across the political divides can see how evil this is and they are taking the message even further than the feminists have been able to.

Instead of carping online that they don't like the people now agreeing with them and they said it first.

Also the message that is taking hold with the public is that this is wrong, harmful and goes against reality. It's not the GC argument that's winning people over.

Most people aren't GC. Most parents think like Matt Walsh does that there are on average differences between their sons and daughters.

So when feminsts are waiting for only complete agreement with their GC beliefs in order to challenge these damaging practices they're going to be waiting for ever whilst children are harmed.

As this is taking traction in public it's becoming clear to me that many feminists are more interested in the purity of agreement with their GC views than with preventing harm to kids.

In that form GC feminism is just another ideology prepared to allow harm to kids to protect their world view.

ohdelay · 05/06/2023 11:36

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 05/06/2023 11:24

“The main thing that trans men want is to be able to stand to void [urinate]. Secondary to that of course is being able to have sex with their new penis. This really changes their lives.”

And now they've got me wondering, how many men prioritise "stand up to pee" over "have sex"? A survey just waiting to be done!

If they start changing them before they're sexually active they won't know what they've lost. Possibly intentional?

ohdelay · 05/06/2023 11:30

demand**

ohdelay · 05/06/2023 11:24

The term "gender critical" itself implies there is a debate to be had. There isn't. The real questions are "What the fuck are you doing to that child?". "Why aren't you in prison?" Debating gender versus personality when actual crimes are being committed and begging to have your voice heard by menz is pathetic.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 05/06/2023 11:24

“The main thing that trans men want is to be able to stand to void [urinate]. Secondary to that of course is being able to have sex with their new penis. This really changes their lives.”

And now they've got me wondering, how many men prioritise "stand up to pee" over "have sex"? A survey just waiting to be done!

Helleofabore · 05/06/2023 11:17

“Gender critical is debate club nonsense with no end product. Matt Walsh has forced millions to actually see what is being done to children and it is unforgivable.
Go on then gender critical feminists (KJK not included), do something.
”

What? Here in the Uk? Blimey! Your own prejudice is showing through here.

It has been the work of feminists, parents and concerned clinicians that had forced the acknowledgement that there is no evidence to support these procedures. Walsh is a good speaker, but he is only working from the information pulled together and disseminated by women and clinicians before he came along.

He is amplifying the work of others, fine. He does is well. But no fucking way can it be said “Go on then gender critical feminists (KJK not included), do something.”

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 05/06/2023 11:11

“I have patients say: ‘You have saved my life.’ It is very gratifying"

Well yes, hearing someone say it must feel very gratifying. Even though you didn't.

ohdelay · 05/06/2023 11:05

Another gem in plain sight
“I think most of my urology peers think I’m mad. Well actually, compared to staring down a laparoscope for four hours removing someone’s prostate this is much more fun,” said Bellringer.

ohdelay · 05/06/2023 11:04

nolongersurprised · 05/06/2023 09:46

Somehow I don’t think you’re debating in good faith 🙄

None of them are. Obfuscating bots. Gender critical is debate club nonsense with no end product. Matt Walsh has forced millions to actually see what is being done to children and it is unforgivable.
Go on then gender critical feminists (KJK not included), do something. Business is booming apparently
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/10/meet-the-gender-reassignment-surgeons-demand-is-going-through-the-roof
A mainstream media outlet in 2016 printed this outright lie

“There are a lot more male to female trans patients than there are female to male, but saying that it takes four operations to make a penis and only one to make a vagina,” said Ralph. “The main thing that trans men want is to be able to stand to void [urinate]. Secondary to that of course is being able to have sex with their new penis. This really changes their lives.”

In June 2023, urination and sex are still impossible through the flubs that result from this surgery.

Meet the gender reassignment surgeons: 'Demand is going through the roof'

Under a dozen people in the UK can carry out vaginoplasty or phalloplasty operations – and attracting new talent is tough

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/10/meet-the-gender-reassignment-surgeons-demand-is-going-through-the-roof

Merrymouse · 05/06/2023 10:13

What I am saying is that framing banning of hormone and surgery as being a result of ‘cultural wars’ is incorrect.

In America, at the moment it is. On both sides the people with the loudest voices are sexist regressive men, and everyone else just gets caught in the crossfire.

There are American feminists who have been talking about this issue for years, but apparently it’s too uncomfortable for men to hear their voices.

Datun · 05/06/2023 09:50

Merrymouse · 05/06/2023 09:38

They should be banned because they are unsafe, experimental when they are not life saving, and because diagnosis of the conditions they are supposed to treat has now become so clouded by support groups giving tips on influencing diagnosis that it is a minefield.

The diagnosis might be wrong, but if you read Hannah Barnes’ book, there is almost always an underlying condition that needs care. Right wing politicians are grasping this issue because it is so obvious that you can’t change sex, so it’s easier to talk about that than denying terminations to miscarrying women.

Without a proper healthcare framework you just drive vulnerable people towards exploitation.

I don't think there's any doubt that we have quite a few children with mental health issues. And that trans ideology has been a highly promoted peg for them to hang those issues on.

Who would've thought that such a ridiculous premise would be the one to appeal to vulnerable children?

But yes, of course, removing that particular peg is not going to remove the issues.

Taking the ideology out of schools, is, in my opinion just as crucial as anything else. Because it is teaching children that their quite normal feelings are an illness. And it is removing resilience as any kind of coping mechanism.

So I do understand that stopping mutilating children is just Step One. And that it needs to be recognised as such. Not just an end in itself.

Merrymouse · 05/06/2023 09:50

You think all UK tax payers are individually doing more to combat gender ideology than Matt Walsh?

Obviously some people in the UK really agree with gender ideology, and we all have to pay taxes which fund health care, but then Walsh isn’t exactly against the idea of pink and blue brains, so that is a difficult question to answer.

However I very much believe that the existence of the NHS and the ability to have a judicial review and the existence of bodies like NICE is why the U.K. has had the capacity to formally examine and question what has been happening. We aren’t there yet, but I think we are better placed than either the left or the right in America. The current debate in America is regressive and unhelpful on both sides.

MalagaNights · 05/06/2023 09:49

Merrymouse · 05/06/2023 09:40

You think it's harder in the USA to get child psychology input than in the UK?

In some parts of the US, yes. CAHMS is not adequately funded, but I think it’s easier to drop out of the system completely in some US states.

It's probably easier for the majority of kids in the USA to get child psychology input because most will access it through health insurance.

But a minority will not get it at all because they don't have insurance.

In the UK the majority are unlikely to get anywhere near camhs and treatment is very perfunctory unless you are critical.

So a choice between crap for everyone vs some people get nothing isn't as easy as you claim.

All of which has nothing to do with whether cutting the breasts off a 13 yr old should be banned or not.
Which you still haven't answered.

Helleofabore · 05/06/2023 09:47

Merrymouse · 05/06/2023 09:38

They should be banned because they are unsafe, experimental when they are not life saving, and because diagnosis of the conditions they are supposed to treat has now become so clouded by support groups giving tips on influencing diagnosis that it is a minefield.

The diagnosis might be wrong, but if you read Hannah Barnes’ book, there is almost always an underlying condition that needs care. Right wing politicians are grasping this issue because it is so obvious that you can’t change sex, so it’s easier to talk about that than denying terminations to miscarrying women.

Without a proper healthcare framework you just drive vulnerable people towards exploitation.

I am fully aware merry of the comorbidities that underlie gender dysphoria and that are being left untreated.

What I am saying is that framing banning of hormone and surgery as being a result of ‘cultural wars’ is incorrect.

And I certainly agree that mental health support needs much more investment.

nolongersurprised · 05/06/2023 09:46

Merrymouse · 05/06/2023 09:28

How is Kathleen Stock helping to fund child mental health services adequately?

In the U.K. by paying her taxes.

Somehow I don’t think you’re debating in good faith 🙄

MalagaNights · 05/06/2023 09:45

Right wing politicians are grasping this issue because it is so obvious that you can’t change sex, so it’s easier to talk about that than denying terminations to miscarrying women.

Ah evil right wing people are doing this for bad reasons not because common humanity which crosses political boundaries can see that it's wrong.

(And we know they're evil because they're anti abortion so we drag that in to shore up the evil claim.)

Divisive, self aggrandising bullshit.

People who talk like this are more bothered about their own social virtue signal than just doing what is right in this situation.

Merrymouse · 05/06/2023 09:40

You think it's harder in the USA to get child psychology input than in the UK?

In some parts of the US, yes. CAHMS is not adequately funded, but I think it’s easier to drop out of the system completely in some US states.

MalagaNights · 05/06/2023 09:38

I think 13 year old girls will continue to find ways to harm themselves until they have a mental health service in place

So do you think doctors should be able to remove their breasts because they will harm themselves if they don't?

Merrymouse · 05/06/2023 09:38

They should be banned because they are unsafe, experimental when they are not life saving, and because diagnosis of the conditions they are supposed to treat has now become so clouded by support groups giving tips on influencing diagnosis that it is a minefield.

The diagnosis might be wrong, but if you read Hannah Barnes’ book, there is almost always an underlying condition that needs care. Right wing politicians are grasping this issue because it is so obvious that you can’t change sex, so it’s easier to talk about that than denying terminations to miscarrying women.

Without a proper healthcare framework you just drive vulnerable people towards exploitation.

KalimbaMoon · 05/06/2023 09:34

I thought this was an important documentary. I don’t care that Matt Walsh is no friend to feminists and I don’t care that he’s right-wing. He let people speak - trans and detrans people, medics, therapists… in their own words. I found that lovely, smiling therapist near the start absolutely terrifying. Educated, professional, well-meaning people believing utter nonsense is terrifying. And the Scott Newgent interview was really harrowing.

Everyone should watch this documentary - ignore the trivial rubbish about pink and blue, and struggling to open jars. When Walsh is sitting quietly and letting people speak, that’s when it’s at its most illuminating.

MalagaNights · 05/06/2023 09:33

Merrymouse · 05/06/2023 09:28

How is Kathleen Stock helping to fund child mental health services adequately?

In the U.K. by paying her taxes.

You think camhs in the uk is adequately resourced?

You think it's harder in the USA to get child psychology input than in the UK?

You think all UK tax payers are individually doing more to combat gender ideology than Matt Walsh?

Blimey.
We disagree on so much.

But I presume we do agree you can't change sex.

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