Frustrating conversation with NB sister

So your sister is Non Binary and she thinks that she is above you in the hierarchy of oppression.
She thinks that she has more status than you because you are merely a 'cis' woman.

No need to imagine it, Reality.

Can you imagine if The Life Of Brian had a sequel?

Loretta in the first film convinced the Roman authorities he was really a woman, and a whole beauracracy sprung up from that moment.

And the fun and games that ensued.

Try using that with any other adjective.

If someone objected to being called a 'straight woman' and said 'why can't you just refer to women and gay women', the answer is that doing so implies that gay women are not included within the category of women.

Obviously on this board, most people think trans women aren't included within the category of women, but it is unreasonable to demand that I frame the language I use around conceding a view that I do not have.

When you were born, TeaKlaxon, did someone genuinely need to come and assign your sex?

I've never seen that particular twisted wording before. Perfectly designed so you can keep on calling people 'cis' after they've told you they have no gender.

Not very kind to agender people, is it? Denying their existence like that. Very phobic of you.

And as we all know, sex is determined at conception and observed at birth (or before). No assigning necessary.

I mean yes, that is an example of a hypothetical sentence where you might need to use the adjectives gay and straight.

Thanks for demonstrating the need for adjectives in language.

Many self-identified trans people admit they don’t have gender dysphoria. Where do they fit in, I wonder?

Of course cisgender means not transgender.

Cisgender means someone who does not have a gender identity at odds with sex assigned at birth.

OP does not have a gender identity at odds with sex assigned at birth (she may well believe she has no gender identity at all but that amounts to the same thing for these purposes).

What's the problem with "women and trans women"? If you think of them as women, I'm sure that many other people agree with you. I don't, and I don't use your terms. To me a trans woman is someone of the sex that typically produces ova, with a gender identity.

Well, you can, but it destroys your argument. Pretty much it's calling me a 'heathen' and insisting that I adopt and accept that term for myself. Which I don't, because I'm not a Christian.

I don't care what you call yourself - I do care what you call me.

I'm happy to recognise that there are women in your movement that think of themselves as "cis". It's your identity label, it's up to you what you call yourself. It's not mine, and I find it offensive to be co-opted into your faith belief.

Tea, no, you've misunderstood. You are free to refer to yourself however you wish. You just can't apply that label to those of us who are politely saying 'no, thank you'.

I respect your right to believe whatever you wish; so long as you respect my right not to believe.

Freedom of belief is of course a protected characteristic in the EA -

'Religion refers to any religion, including a lack of religion. Belief refers to any religious or philosophical belief and includes a lack of belief. Generally, a belief should affect your life choices or the way you live for it to be included in the definition.'

My bold.

But I think trans women are 'actual women' too. So referring to women who are not trans as 'actual women' doesn't work to distinguish between cisgender women and transgender women.

Which is essentially what this boils down to: you want to prevent the use of cisgender precisely so you can force people like me to express views that I don't believe (i.e. that trans women aren't 'actual women').

Sometimes it will be relevant to describe me as a gay woman. Most times it won't, but if someone is describing my experience compared to a straight woman, then the adjectives gay and straight are both necessary parts of language.

You mean like in the following sentences:

As a gay woman you would not be sexually interested in a man who identifies as a trans woman, but as a straight woman I could be sexually interested in a man who identifies as a trans woman.

(Note, I can't imagine the second ever happening but theoretically they are the sex I am attracted to)

I've never been nice to Arsenal and Chelsea supporters. Should there be a law telling me I should?

Bollocks! (male, not cis male, exclaiming).

Such fuzzy logic isn't it? I was told yesterday that "There are laws saying you have to be nice to trans people." I don't think so.

Cis means your gender identity matches your biological reality. Many of us here don’t have a gender identity, so we’re neither cis nor trans. We’re just women (and also some men, eg RealityFan). Trans activists and allies try to frame “cis” as the equivalent to “straight” for people who aren’t gay or bisexual. But “straight” is a sexual orientation grounded in fact. If I’m cis, that means I have floaty gender-feels that I am a woman. No. My womanhood is rooted in my sex-based biology, and although it shapes my life, health and how others treat me, it does not have an influence on my personality. I am gender non-conforming, I didn’t feel all floatily aligned with my female body as I went through puberty and I’d have probably preferred to be a boy as it was blindingly obvious to me throughout my childhood that boys had more opportunities and more fun. So no, I’m not cis. I’m a woman, no prefix needed.

Cis does not mean 'not trans'. It assumes a gender identity. It's misgendering.

"My sister is extremely kind and empathetic, and highly educated - I don't know how she hasn't had an 'are we the baddies?' moment". Thing is, OP, in this instance she is neither empathic nor kind. I accept she may be in other situations, but she appears to not be able to cope with the complexity of this situation as she sees it and has therefore thrown some women, including you and her mum, under the bus. Don't enable her by pretending that she is always kind.

But when it's relevant to distinguish between women who are trans, and women who are not, then I would refer to trans women and cis women.

How about 'actual women' - as you are hearing that many women do not identify themselves as cis, and find the adjective 'cis' both inaccurate and insulting.

It's so frustrating how many women and girls don't realise this movement is actually the pinnacle of male entitlement, to the point of them taking over womanhood for themselves. And the refusal to see it when confronted with it.

It really is crystal clear when you see it once, you can't unsee it.

We had a bloody glossary of terms sent round to us yesterday by our HR department. One of the terms was Cis and I'm so pissed off about it I want to complain but don't even know how to frame my argument about it. I thought maybe it was me being sensitive so in a way I'm pleased to read re your talk with your sister.

If OP doesn't wish to be given an ideological label she disagrees with, it's polite to respect that, and not polite to impose your own beliefs on her.

If said quickly this could be mis-heard as "nonsense man."