Frustrating conversation with NB sister

Tell her you identify as a woman and there is to be no debate about it.

If you feel, or have internalised, that there's no real difference btwn males and females save for gender identity, then "female" issues are irrelevant.

Hey. Women have equal rights, nothing they can't do, no man can say no to a woman getting ahead at work, when to have a baby, whether or not to settle down, whether or not to into sex work.

Ditto gays...they've got Pride and gay marriage, yes?

So as a Gen Z proto feminist, you see women's and gay rights as settled.

What riles you instead as an intersectional feminist...Greening the environment, decolonising the West, fighting in George Floyd's memory...and battling the great battle for the last beleagured minority, trans and NB.

As a young female and feminist, womens rights have been done, and indeed GC women have so benefitted, they're now the enemy.

As a bunch of young activist women at Oxford Uni who they idolise more...Emily Pankhurst and Germaine Greer, or Judith Butler and Dylan Mulvaney...I think you might all balk at the answer.

She's ignorant and immature.

Whereby our analogy falls down is that the category woman includes both straight a d gay women. They share their common biology. Tw and women have no similarities. There is nothing tw have in common with most women that women don't also have in common with other males, save for those few women who do identify themselves as cis.

So the categories are actually men and women. TW are men. We call them TW to not trigger people who find those facts hard to cope with.

I find it amazing posters here get told off for not using preferred terms and not respecting gender identities but when they ask for the same courtesy it’s all “nah.”

A) not according to stonewall. Perhaps you should take this up with them https://www.sad.scot.nhs.uk/bereavement/supporting-lgbtplus-people-around-bereavement/lgbtplus-definitions/

B) When you start entering the realm of trans ideology (which you are if you call me cis), my gender identity is at odds with your idea of that which matches the sex identified at, or pre, birth, because to not be at odds it would have to be quite old fashioned and would involve some notion of femininity which I don't have or want to have.

So I'm not cis. You're misgendering and trying to deny my existence. You're being literally violent.

Does anyone seriously think that if trans was all or predominantly one way ie females becoming males, leading to opportunities taken from men, money making and sports at risk, the new trans men finger wagging at locker room/jock/alpha behaviour in men's spaces, pornography and prostitution/lap dancing succesfully extinguished by the new trans men, in short where men were absolutely stymied socially and financially by trans men, that men would ever have allowed this phenomenon to take root?

No, men would either have assaulted (or worse) trans men in increasing numbers to stop the movement dead, men at heads of governments and bureaucracies would have sat on legislation, trans men wouldn't have had a sniff of power.

Oh. Just like women over time.

Men wouldn't stand for it. Blacks and other PoC have zero tolerance for the trans racial grift from the likes of Rachel Dolezal and Senator Elizabeth Warren. Thus male and black identity stays unadulterated.

Women? This craze was not nipped in the bud. You were encouraged, nay obliged, by men in power and their little transmaidens to not shout out, to accept, to bend over.

And while all that happened, the Cis affectation bled into the discourse, the Trans child and suicide ideation meme invaded the culture. And elites impolite society coalesced into the defensive line we see today.

How you get back this decade of trans advancement at your expense, I really don't know.

I'd seriously contend there's more chance of Zelensky ousting Putin than there is in women ousting trans activism and the co-opting of your sex class and societal norms.

Ah! On the same wavelength.

Although the TRA version is worse, really. Clarifying that a lesbian is homosexual or prefers vaginas is silly and redundant, but not inaccurate. 'Cis' implies being happy with gendered stereotypes. I guess the old 'women-born women' phrasing was too terfy for them.

If we go by the definition of

A trans person does not identify as the same gender as the sex that they were assigned at birth

then gender critical women (and men) are in fact trans gender as they do not identify as the gender that has been assigned to match their sex.

I was just writing out a post about penispreferringlesbians and vaginapreferring lesbians. You beat me to it!

Yes. It's more like if a group of women who were attracted to men wanted to call themselves lesbians. Heterosexual lesbians. And insisted that actual lesbians always referred to themselves as homosexual lesbians, and never spoke about lesbian issues without being sure to include the lesbians who have male partners.

Twisting a word to make it include its opposite.

If you're attracted to men, you aren't a lesbian. If you were born a man, you aren't a woman.

This. It's exactly like that.

We had a bloody glossary of terms sent round to us yesterday by our HR department. One of the terms was Cis and I'm so pissed off about it I want to complain but don't even know how to frame my argument about it.

Well, did HR include a warning that many people find it offensive so you should all avoid using it in the workplace? If they forgot then you could politely remind them.

Yes. It's more like if a group of women who were attracted to men wanted to call themselves lesbians. Heterosexual lesbians. And insisted that actual lesbians always referred to themselves as homosexual lesbians, and never spoke about lesbian issues without being sure to include the lesbians who have male partners.

Twisting a word to make it include its opposite.

If you're attracted to men, you aren't a lesbian. If you were born a man, you aren't a woman.

Be good to hear this.

It would. It would be the first time I've ever heard who is a woman from any genderist which wasn't predicated simply on deciding you are one.

Teaklaxon, are trans men actual men? If you had a long-term girlfriend Martina who later transitioned to become Martin… no deadnaming allowed, how does that affect the time you spent with them when they were Martina? Were you unwittingly dating a man all along, if TMAM? Does that mean you were inadvertently in a heterosexual relationship? This is another reason why I can’t accept TWAW and TMAM, it’s not grounded in reality but in intangible feelings.

Is an 'agender' person cis, then?

Except that isn't quite true.
A cis gender woman/man is one that identifies as the gender that matches their sex identified (assigned if you go by the trans lobby) at birth.

Nobody has to identify as a gender they can just be the sex that they are.
So Cis doesn't work for everybody.

My point is serious inasmuch as I think the oppression of women over the centuries would have been even worse, women would have been even more marginalised.

The genius of the film is that it captured the early impulse of political correctness that was developing in the late 70s, crystallised the inanity of the bureaucratic state perfectly, and between these two vice-like pressures, showed that a concept like a man IDing as Loretta, was not only perfectly possible, but almost pre-destined by the system.

Political correctness aka no language to marginalise minorities.

The bureaucratic state aka an increasing series of legal traps to enshrine change and progress.

Mesh the two together, as social media inflames social justice issues, and the legal state is now supra national and international.

The perfect melting pot for trans to step out into the light and be enshrined.

Be good to hear this.

This.

Then have the 'then knock the fuck off with the cis crap then' argument.

That's a radical interpretation of the text.

What I wonder is, if trans women were calling themselves women and the rest all calling themselves cis women, how long before trans women started insisting on also being called cis women?

What is a woman, @TeaKlaxon? How do we know who is one?

If someone objected to being called a 'straight woman' and said 'why can't you just refer to women and gay women', the answer is that doing so implies that gay women are not included within the category of women.

That isn't the same, because it's not including the opposite of the category in the category itself, thereby making the category meaningless.