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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Frustrating conversation with NB sister

136 replies

pastatriangles · 02/06/2023 09:15

'I don't want to be called a cis woman.' (Me)
'I will call you cis because that's what you are.'
'What would you say if a transwoman wanted to be called a woman?'
'I would call her a woman.'
'You wouldn't insist on calling them a trans woman because that's what they are?'
...

It's so frustrating how many women and girls don't realise this movement is actually the pinnacle of male entitlement, to the point of them taking over womanhood for themselves. And the refusal to see it when confronted with it.

end rant.

OP posts:
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TheMarzipanDildo · 03/06/2023 20:07

Clementineorsatsuma · 02/06/2023 14:23

Do any of you know what cis means?

Comfortable in skin

So if that is offensive, are you NOT comfortable in your skin? 🤷‍♀️

Genuinely confused as to why it's deemed offensive.

I'm a woman. I'm a cis woman. I'm a middle aged woman. I'm a divorced woman. I'm a single woman. I'm a straight woman. I'm an overweight woman. I'm a working woman. I'm an intelligent woman.

I could go on.

They're all just adjectives.

Many trans people would take issue with the idea that they are not comfortable in their own skin. “Trans joy is real”, “pregnant men” on the cover of magazines and all that.

When you call yourself cis, what you are actually doing is saying that you subscribe to a shit ton of stereotypes about women which chiefly benefit men.

Craftycorvid · 02/06/2023 22:19

‘I will call you a cis-woman.’

’You are mis-gendering me and I don’t feel safe. I’m a penis-preferring non-trans femme demi-sexual lesbian elf, and I insist you use the full title in any references to me at all times. What? You object? You bigot!’

thatsn0tmyname · 02/06/2023 22:13

Just reply that cis is 'hate speech'. It's a popular narrative these days.

Backstreets · 02/06/2023 22:07

Ed Suzy Gein…

Sorry about your sister, hopefully she grows out of it. Endless sibling arguments should be about salient issues like who remembers an event in 2004 correctly, not something as bloody embarrassing as enbinism.

FlatArthur · 02/06/2023 22:01

Oh I like turtles.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 02/06/2023 21:39

It’s just turtles all the way down

THEY JUST DON’T WANT YOU TO FIND OUT

sorry about your sister OP, she sounds frustrating

JanesLittleGirl · 02/06/2023 21:39

It's OK @FlatArthur, Discworld is flat.

FlatArthur · 02/06/2023 21:32

Woman2023 · 02/06/2023 17:54

TeaKlaxon · Today 12:21

But I think trans women are 'actual women' too.

And some people think the earth is flat. The evidence does not support your belief.

WHAT

nepeta · 02/06/2023 20:58

Someone used the thought experiment of small groups of cat and dog fanciers deciding to assign some cats into the category of dogs and some dogs into the category of cats. For instance, Yorkshire terriers and chihuahuas would be moved to 'cats', and Maine coon cats and Norwegian forest cats would be moved to 'dogs'.

We would then have a similar situation where the new category of 'cats' would consist of 'cis cats' and of 'trans cats', and the new category of 'dogs' would consist of 'cis dogs' and of 'trans dogs.'

What has actually happened is that the desired relabeling of two types of cats and two types of dogs is, in fact, a rewriting of the whole system, and everyone must now follow the new naming rules, even though it turns the resulting two categories into something essentially meaningless in terms of animal behaviour or health.

I am not equating trans debate issues with the above silly example, of course, but sometimes such examples allow us to see more clearly what might be happening to us (what's happening to the dogs and cats which were not moved but are now renamed and seen differently.)

The other way of thinking about this question is in terms of sex-based forms of discrimination.

For instance, who is it who will be viewed in the labour market as possibly capable of pregnancy and therefore possibly seen as an expensive employee to be avoided?(As replacements need to be found and trained and paid for the pregnancy leave time, and as the person may not return to work so all training at the workplace might be lost etc.)

In the new gender identity framework the people potentially discriminated against in hiring and promotions would no longer be found in the category 'women', but would be scattered across all new gender categories. Nonbinary female people would belong to the possible target group, and so would all trans men who the employees know are capable of getting pregnant. Trans women whom others see as fertile-age female people would also be affected, unless the employer knows their trans status in which case they are not.

It seems to me pretty important to have a name for the female sex, for reasons of this type, if feminism is to have any function at all.

Catiette · 02/06/2023 18:34

@Clementineorsatsuma and @TeaKlaxon , we clearly have conflicting opinions, which mean this can all get a bit circuitous and emotive (you say tomayto, I say tomahto), so how about trying to resolve this by getting as close as we possibly can to more objective basics?

Clementineorsatsuma - let's take a definitions-based approach, from the starting point of a source I assume you would trust (apologies & put me right if not).

"Cisgender or Cis: Someone whose gender identity is the same as the sex they were assigned at birth" and "Gender: Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth." (Stonewall).

This unambiguously establishes that in asking me to call myself "cis" to distinguish me from "trans", you are assuming that I identify with "largely culturally determined... femininity". I don't. Not remotely!!!

As such, what about my rejection of this label could be deemed unreasonable or unjustifiable?

TeaKlaxon - in the face of the two-tomah/ay-to stand-off, I think logic may work best here...

You refer to the vital importance of linguistic classes to distinguish between different groups. I agree. "Trans women" is a necessary descriptor for those who identify as trans, and, as I understand it, also accepted by this group (although many members may find "women" preferable). "Cis women" is a useful descriptor for those who identify as cis and, by definition, embraced by this group.

Would you agree that that leaves two groups without a word: women-who-don't-identify-as-cis (that's quite a mouthful, after all!) and the entirety of adult/juvenile human females as a biological sex class?

Would you agree that the former (women-who-don't-identify-as-cis) are as entitled to choose or reject labels as anyone else?

Would you agree that the latter (the entirety of adult/juvenile human females as a biological sex class) need a word to describe them as a political entity? (By your standards, there's currently no single word to, for example, refer to adult human females suffering under Taliban law - both "trans" and "cis" would presume a particular gender identity, and your interpretation of "women" could include males).

As you'll see from the above, I see inconsistencies in, and issues with, your preferred language that remain unaddressed. So, here's my solution.

My preferred language would be:

transwomen = trans identifying male (already in accepted, common use)
cis women = cis-identifying female (for women who choose this)
women = all adult human females, including cis women*

*Note the spaces in the above, which enable the class distinctions your approach prevents - it would require another concession on the part of transwomen, who, as I understand it, often prefer to retain the gap. But then women are making a concession too, in accepting males' use of "women" in the other half of the word. Note, too, that, to the best of my knowledge, none of the terms above are deemed offensive by the corresponding group.

So that's me.

What would your suggested alternatives be, with a view to making these same necessary distinctions in a respectful way for all concerned?

pastatriangles · 02/06/2023 18:24

Clementineorsatsuma · 02/06/2023 14:23

Do any of you know what cis means?

Comfortable in skin

So if that is offensive, are you NOT comfortable in your skin? 🤷‍♀️

Genuinely confused as to why it's deemed offensive.

I'm a woman. I'm a cis woman. I'm a middle aged woman. I'm a divorced woman. I'm a single woman. I'm a straight woman. I'm an overweight woman. I'm a working woman. I'm an intelligent woman.

I could go on.

They're all just adjectives.

Firstly, it doesn't mean that.

Secondly, its use attempts to make biological women merely a subset of 'woman' - and, further, a more privileged and less worthy subset, hence needing to shut up and 'be kind'.

Thirdly, do you patronise and argue with other groups over what terms they'd like you to use - telling them that they just don't understand the meanings of the words themselves?

Because that's what you're doing here.

OP posts:
DeanElderberry · 02/06/2023 18:18

Oh and thank whoever it was who mentioned Gein - he really was comfortable in skin, wasn't he?

DeanElderberry · 02/06/2023 18:17

If someone has decided to retrospectively turn cis into an acronym will they do the same to trans? Totally Realistic About Natural Sciences ? ? ? or maybe something else.

Woman2023 · 02/06/2023 17:54

TeaKlaxon · Today 12:21

But I think trans women are 'actual women' too.

And some people think the earth is flat. The evidence does not support your belief.

ArabeIIaScott · 02/06/2023 17:45

HirplesWithHaggis · 02/06/2023 17:40

I am having a double reaction to that, part laugh out loud and part eeeeuuurrrggghhh!

IKR

ArabeIIaScott · 02/06/2023 17:44

ApocalipstickNow · 02/06/2023 17:04

Yeah, funny how old Ed isn’t claimed as trans/nb isn’t it?

Surely she meets the criteria.

I actually didn't know anything about Gein until I googled to check who it was who did the skin thing.

Yes, it seems he was trans.

MagicSpring · 02/06/2023 17:43

*TeaKlaxon · Today 12:21

But I think trans women are 'actual women' too. *

Why, though?

Why do we need a word for 'feminine males' that also encompasses 'couldn't give a shit about gender' female people?

Thelnebriati · 02/06/2023 17:43

So instead of saying 'gender roles make many people feel so uncomfortable they wish they were the opposite sex' we have to come up with some convoluted linguistic nonsense and all pretend to believe it?

#nothankyou

TheFretfulPorpentine · 02/06/2023 17:42

Can anyone clarify how sex is assigned at birth? Presumably there are quotas. Who assigns the sex? Is it the midwife or the hospital administrator? Does the mother get any say at all? Does the assigning person go "eeny meeny miny mo"?

HirplesWithHaggis · 02/06/2023 17:40

ArabeIIaScott · 02/06/2023 16:31

No, it's not 'comfortable in MY skin', just 'comfortable in skin'.

Ask Ed Gein.

I am having a double reaction to that, part laugh out loud and part eeeeuuurrrggghhh!

FrippEnos · 02/06/2023 17:34

Clementineorsatsuma · 02/06/2023 14:23

Do any of you know what cis means?

Comfortable in skin

So if that is offensive, are you NOT comfortable in your skin? 🤷‍♀️

Genuinely confused as to why it's deemed offensive.

I'm a woman. I'm a cis woman. I'm a middle aged woman. I'm a divorced woman. I'm a single woman. I'm a straight woman. I'm an overweight woman. I'm a working woman. I'm an intelligent woman.

I could go on.

They're all just adjectives.

Wow, another change to the term.

Ourladycheesusedatum · 02/06/2023 17:33

TeaKlaxon · 02/06/2023 12:31

Of course cisgender means not transgender.

Cisgender means someone who does not have a gender identity at odds with sex assigned at birth.

OP does not have a gender identity at odds with sex assigned at birth (she may well believe she has no gender identity at all but that amounts to the same thing for these purposes).

Errrr really?

I absolutely do not have a gender identity, however if you want to describe one I might find I do, lost it down the back of the sofa maybe?

StephanieSuperpowers · 02/06/2023 17:25

I think it would be brilliant if you could tell us, in addition to the process by which men can become women, you can explain to us how you arrived at that understanding.

Ourladycheesusedatum · 02/06/2023 17:23

TeaKlaxon · 02/06/2023 12:21

But I think trans women are 'actual women' too. So referring to women who are not trans as 'actual women' doesn't work to distinguish between cisgender women and transgender women.

Which is essentially what this boils down to: you want to prevent the use of cisgender precisely so you can force people like me to express views that I don't believe (i.e. that trans women aren't 'actual women').

In what way are trans woman "actual woman"
Please do describe when they become women and how.

You can use cis as a descriptor for those women who's gender aligns with their sex, the vast majority of us dont know what a gender is. So if you could clear that up too, we can all pack up and go home.

ApocalipstickNow · 02/06/2023 17:04

ArabeIIaScott · 02/06/2023 16:31

No, it's not 'comfortable in MY skin', just 'comfortable in skin'.

Ask Ed Gein.

Yeah, funny how old Ed isn’t claimed as trans/nb isn’t it?

Surely she meets the criteria.

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