A bit shaken- friends into gender ideology

Also point out that there's a man in Newcastle suing the local nhs for road railing him to transition and he horrifically regrets it and is now disabled by it. If adults don't get it right how can we be sure of the children??

Sorry I read more of th thread and saw you had said this - it's despicable.

I'd be pointing out that the majority of "gender confused kids" decide they're gay and others tend to come from rigidly sexist backgrounds or are autistic. Because autistic children are sometimes less interested in their peers, prefer certain types of clothing irrespective of their peers (often for sensory reasons) and/ or can find nuance in labels and stereotypes challenging to decipher. (I've actually taught more rigidly sexist autistic children then trans.)

Then point out that puberty blockers block any potential desire as more eloquently and tragically described by this woman: twitter.com/laurengnc_butch/status/1664544128103743491?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

As well as catastrophically destroying natural childhood development of bones and organs, including the endocrine system. Cross sex hormones also do this as well as damaging the heart and increasing risks of certain diseases.

That risk of suicide during PBs for girls is higher, and risk longer term for transitioning is higher.

It's also suggest they read some Piaget. And vgotsky. twitter.com/prof_curiosity1/status/1521440115167723520?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

Do you want to continue this friendship? If so keep off the topic.

If you are genuinely concerned about someone being a malign influence on your children then step away from them.

When I start prodding others for their views they can come up with weird tangential stuff that throws me off course.

If your friend is still working things out then a big argument risks hardening her views. But if she's already decided that she is #teambonkerstrans then she is probably a lost cause. It's only the undecideds who are available for persuasion. And even then it might not be a sudden revelation.

I've come to realise that many people don't engage their brains on more than the most superficial of levels.

They believe what they're told, they don't question or think things through.

The trans issue looks superficially like acceptance of gay rights, it's good to be progressive, everyone should be kind and accepting, etc. They aren't engaging with the very challenging nature of this issue. They want to be seen as nice people and they think blind acceptance is the way to do that. 🤷‍♀️

In time, they'll realise it's not as simple as that. But it may not be you that helps them come to that conclusion.

Tell them they're both being very ableist as what the hell are they going to do if their child is born disabled?

Claim they're in the wrong body and order a refund? 😡

They're also both being sexist as sex is determined from conception.

I sympathise OP, I can set my thoughts out quite coherently in writing but I'm quite socially anxious and not good at expressing myself verbally, especially in a confrontational situation. I think some of the advice here about saying less is good, just maybe musing on some questions rather than directly trying to refute their points. 'I wonder how we can tell which of the kids who question their gender will turn out to be trans adults?, hmm, who knows?' and leave it at that. The seed may have been planted!

I also think that just stating your position goes a long way, there will come a point when your friends will have a niggling doubt and they'll remember that you, a nice friend and reasonable person, also has doubts and that will help them up and over the top.

You see, this is what confounds me. How can the surgery "be better?"

It's like saying that surgeons should somehow be able to recreate an entirely new organ out of bits they've harvested from other parts of your body and sewn together, and not only that, that they should be able to plumb it all in so that it works exactly like it does in a member of the opposite sex.

What do these people expect that medical science should be able to do? Are they thinking that you should be able to somehow grow your own penis through the use of opposite sex stem cells and radical genetic editing?

Do they think a man should be able to take a pill and somehow grow a vagina and a uterus? How? Where? With what?

It's like thinking a surgeon could just stitch an arm onto your back and it would somehow be fully viable.

I understand your frustration with the "born in the wrong body" thing, it doesn't make sense if you think about it.

It functions as a thought terminating phrase like trans women are women. I don't think they are thinking about what they mean by it at all.

I think the fundamental error TWAW people are making with regard to children is assuming that every child who questions their gender (or appears non conforming) would grow up to be trans.

If you believe that then treating them as the opposite sex and helping them access medical transition asap seems to be the accepting and compassionate route.

But once you know that it isn't true. That left alone (I e. not affirmed etc) most would not be trans adults. Then treating them as if they are the opposite sex cannot be the right approach.

You can't unsee it.

Then you realise that we are confusing children and causing them to be self conscious about their gender expression and ruminate upon it. Rather than just live their lives.

Then add in for the very small percentage that would have become trans adults that even for them, transitioning medically as children is risky with poorer health outcomes, lack options with regards to fertility etc.

I'm surprised by those saying no need for OP to worry about her children, they will listen to her first. As we know from many threads on FWR the influnece of the trans agenda is everywhere.

Anyway, hello OP, sorry for how you are feeling. It can be really disheartening when someone you get along with, like and enjoy spending time together turns out to have views that you just cant share.

If they are friends, and know about you being neurodiverse, is is possible to say to them you are finding their failure to listen to you very upsetting and challenging. So could they at least take the time to listen to you, and answers the points you make with more than is surgery good enough as though there is only one direction to take.

If you are happier expressing yourself in writing, maybe say you want to write it down, or for instance ask them to look at a video about for instance de-transitioners, or read an article so that you can then discuss it together.

But I'm afraid you might also have to accept that however much you like them they maybe just dont think about things in depth, and are just going along with the crowd.

I can see this isn't a good solution if they are people you just socialise with ocassionally, but if the know you even a little bit, hopefully they would take on that you are feeling distressed by their failure to listen to you.

Honestly I would just learn to be more relaxed about it.

A politician or medical professional may be under a duty to question, stand up to, extremist gender ideology.

But I don't see that you have to try to debate your friends on it, when people differ in their ability to rationally consider these things. If you want to stand against it, there are probably better ways, especially if you have already discovered that your friends don't have the most open of minds.

Why would your friends have more influence on your child than you do? Educate your child and let other people get on with believing whatever they like. You won’t change their minds, you’re just stirring up trouble.

I would focus on the homophobic element of transitioning children. We know that most gender non conforming children grow up to be gay, if left alone. So why are we trying to tell gay kids that their bodies are wrong? Isn’t that very homophobic?

It's not you it's them. It doesn't matter how articulate you are. It's a cult that people don't even realise they've been indoctrinated into. If they opened their ears for 2 minutes they would be horrified.

that it's the same as a gay child etc
Tell them that it is them who are effectively non- accepting of a possibly gay child, or non-conforming child.

Tell them how it is in Iran and and among some ultra traditional religious people that chemical and surgical conversion is used on gay children to hide their true selves.

It’s not your job to educate people, and what they do with their kids is their own problem. You won’t change their minds, you’re just making yourself feel stressed and getting called nasty names. If you don’t drop the subject you’ll end up losing your friends. Just let them believe whatever they want and change the subject.

Oh my lovely and intelligent SIL asked me if I put my pronouns after my name at work. I explained no. She was properly shocked and said she thought I was a liberal thinker. 😁
I gave a pretty reasoned and succinct argument about my GC thinking and she couldn't talk about it anymore. We agreed to disagree..just hope it laid a seed of doubt

It's really hard to keep cool in this kind of situation! I found myself shaking the first time this came up in conversation with someone who had swallowed the ideology. Remember that you can't change someone's mind, you can only make them begin to ask questions. I'm saying this knowing it's easier said than done, but I'd practise a few responses along the lines of 'you think children can be born in the wrong body?!' in a slightly incredulous tone. Then say nothing more - and actually refuse to say anything more even if they ask! Just give an enigmatic smile!