A bit shaken- friends into gender ideology

Not when you're witnessing child abuse

I have lots of friends with different views, politically and morally. We are all friends , we have healthy discussion and if it gets too heated we change the subject.

You can be friends with people who are very different to you. That's ok!

@mybodyisme I wonder if the latest developments from Ritchie Herron would be worth them reading? He has a substack that's brutal and honest.

It is truly terrifying that these deluded women will gladly sacrifice their own children to be on "right side of history". I don't think it is your neurodiversity that is making you "uncomfortable", it is your natural womanly maternal instinct to protect children.

And from a male perspective (which I am for those not aware), it's kind of insulting to suggest that the men's room is so unsafe. I've seen quite a few fights in my life - on the dance floor, at the bar, outside the bar, walking down the street, on a bus, on a train... in fact almost everywhere except in the men's toilets.

I'm sure it's happened but the justification for transwomen to use women's toilets just isn't there.. They use it because they want to. Women should be more comfortable asking other men for help. Most guys, especially more blokey ones, would be plenty happy to block another guy from going in there or - with clear invitation - go in remove one. And no, I'm not talking violence, just simple "no, you ain't doing that mate".

Seriously - women should ask for help more often with this. Just pick the right guys to ask.

I think it was looking across the pond to see how far they had gone with lack of free speech, women not being able to complain if men (I mean by that unlikely to be genuinely trans individuals) walk through the door which has been propped open trans campaigners without considering the consequences and big pharma/ hospitals pushing for unquestioned medication and surgical transition for young, vulnerable children and teens.

I genuinely did not see the massive problem initially with women’s spaces until I realised that so many women have been subject to abuse in their lives and it is really traumatising for them.

I tend to ask trans ideologists why they are prioritising transidentifying males' "needs" over traumatised women's needs. I have never got an answer to that question. This ideology has resulted in several of my friends and family not being able to access toilets in some public places such as theatres and restaurants anymore. What is inclusive about that?

I’ve just had a post deleted too… no idea why!! C’mon mumsnet you can do better than censoring women!!!

Brilliant post @OldGardinia

@mybodyisme
"Anyway, just hoping for some wise words on how to keep my cool when this happens as it's really shaken me."

There's a world of difference between being amazing at arguing and keeping your cool. Some people tend to think if they're not the first they've lost. But keeping your cool is all that is necessary to win a lot of the time. My golden rule to keep in mind during any debate is: "Don't be the one who looks like a screaming tomato." This is all you need to achieve, don't cripple yourself with more.

A few simple guides:

1. Breathe. The body and the mind are linked. When we feel tense, we adopt a tense posture. When we relax we shift out of it. What not everybody realises is that it's like a lever with two ends. If you start to adopt physical postures, faster breathing, etc., mentally move yourself back. Make yourself breathe slowly and deeply. Make yourself lower your shoulders. It will stop yourself from running away into stress and panic reactions. "Breathe yourself calm." Keep doing this throughout the argument.
2. Because of how you think you will tend towards the binary, meaning if something is said that you disagree with; or your argument is misrepresented - you have a tendency to react in an extreme way to it. Think about a boxer, think how many little blows he takes while he looks for an opening to land a real blow. If the boxer reacted to every little blow like he'd just been defeated, he would be. Instead, he says: "eh, and continues to fight". So this is the second key thing: "You haven't lost because of one point".
3. Think about what is actually going on. Many, maybe most, of these arguments aren't really about the facts. They're about "this person is saying the socially approved thing" or not. Or often "I don't want to lose to this person." Given how you have described yourself, and that you are likely intellectually honest, there's a good chance that you miss for some people the argument isn't about what you're actually arguing about, but societal control or social dominance over you. Your body knows this because it's reacting with a threat response. But consciously you're likely thinking only in terms of the argument's merits and intellectual consistency". An awareness of what is actually going on can be a great asset. For a start, in a society where we can seldom resort to force and on topics that focused around a specific action, it is very hard to get someone to change their position on something. Because they don't need to and they have a motivation not to. But lets say there are other people witnessing this argument. Now you can say to yourself your goal isn't to make the other person change their mind (very hard) but to show their arguments are flawed to those watching (achievable, worthwhile). If you think what is going on is they are trying to socially police you, purging you of your unacceptable opinions or make you hide them, look for ways in which their own arguments lead to socially unacceptable outcomes. It strikes at their motivation. It may not be intuitive but the underlying technique at work here is: "Maintain perspective". Try to see the argument from the outside as a dynamic between two or more people and this will help you remember that you're not alone and it's just an isolated conversation that is taking place over and over between lots of other people right now. Normalising it will help you feel less like you personally are under threat. You're part of a many, even if the many are just "off camera" right now you can picture them there.

So that's three applicable techniques you can just keep in mind as you find yourself in this situation. None of them take more than a brief moment of introspection and you can keep them in mind through the conversation:

• Breathe.
• Don't decide you've lost because of small losses.
• Maintain Perspective.

I hope this helps in some small way. Stay calm, stay reasonable, stay in control. And if you keep that up long enough, then the other person becomes the screaming tomato. On the other side of that, sometimes, is them changing their mind.

mybodyisme · Today 11:33
I've got literally no idea why my post was deleted. I just outlined what she thinks?!
Her words, not mine!
If you ask Mumsnet they’ll tell you.

I’m sorry your post was deleted mybodyisme. Can someone please tell mumsnet that women are sick of being censored for telling the truth
Nearly 110 million views for ‘what is a woman’ film on Twitter. Here is the you tube link for the trailer.

Beautifully put, InvisibleDragon · Today 11:16
I’d add that I’d hope the child could have access to psychological support incase of any co-morbidities related to their distress, in case they had previously suffered a traumatic experience, were autistic, were gay but felt they should not be, or had any other difficulties.

Oh that does sound hard and frustrating. I can really see how the experience of needing to choose surgery for your child really gives you an insight that other parents don't have into the realities of medical procedures on children. I think some people think that it's like a magic wand - or that you literally "change sex", rather than having a crudely cosmetic, non-functional simulacrum of a body part grafted on or carved out of your flesh.

I think in your place I would take a line that decisions about surgeries and hormones should be made by the individual themselves when they are adults and can weigh for themselves the long term consequences of the various options. And that the role of parents is to keep all the options available, rather than hustling their child into social and medical "transition" as soon as possible.

I would advise just steering clear of the topic in future. It's not and doesn't need to be your job. The truth will out, in time.

A lot of people have just accepted being told there is an equivalence between being 'trans' and being gay. They have given it no further thought and have not exercised any critical thinking at all.

It has become subsumed, as an issue, into the general rag tag collection of Left-Liberal civil rights with its focus on freedom and equality. -whereby equality basically means everyone is supposed to be the same and have the same needs and requirements.

Being 'trans' has been de-medicalised as an issue in a way that would have been alien to the earliest transsexuals. -who always knew it was a psychological issue. People are now expected to believe in spirits trapped in the 'wrong body' - even though we are also told that suffering from dysphoria is not even a pre-condition for being trans.

None of it is logical or consistent - and furthermore it is a totalitarian movement which expects total compliance from the rest of society under pain of censure or through the use of emotional blackmail.

Being gay or lesbian is not suggesting someone was born in the wrong body; it is simply a word to describe someone's sexual and/or romantic orientation.
Being gay or lesbian is not to deny the reality of biological sex.

'Being trans' is simply a way to frame what has traditionally been seen as a mental health issue - in being unable to accept/feel at home in one's body or biological sex. This needn't stop someone from presenting any way they like, but what they cannot do is change sex.

Sex is real. It under-pins sexual attraction, and it is also of great significance in many types of situation, especially for women and girls ( females) who have additional rights and protections on account of it.

Trans rights are not women's rights.

You could also blithely say it's not evidenced science, all "treatments" for minors are completely off licence and do not have any actual

You need to keep it short and initially keep your feelings out of it. Mentioning you are offended can put people on the defence.

I start with stats/facts.
"Did you know the long term effects of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones is osteoporosis in their 30s, infitility and loss of sexual pleasure?
The stats say about 50% of trans kids are autistic. Most have other mental health issues that are not being treated, personally I feel addressing comorbidities may be more beneficial to the child"

Or if the conversation is men in women's spaces I reference cases like women being raped in prison or hospital wards.

Dont even say TW are not women to start with. It's believed to be transphobic so saying it shuts people down to listening. Just mentioning a couple things you know they as an individual care about be that children or homosexuality rape. Then let them react and or question. If saying a couple facts about what is essentially child abuse (don't use that phrase initially) if that upsets them there is no point trying to engage they won't listen.

That's what worked for me personally. I had a few people literally say they don't want to discuss it it's all so silly. Then I said did you know 50% trans kids are autistic, many would just grow up to be gay and the long term effects of the drugs they are given leaves them lifelong medical patients they are the same drugs they give to chemically castrate pedophiles. The response each time has been "really that can't be true?!" Then I go into more depth tell them to come read Mumsnet and drop it.

I'm ND too. It's super hard to not go into too much detail! But it honestly puts people off to start with

Mermaids were pressured into taking down the ‘born in the wrong body’ mantra as most trans people do not get gender confirming surgeries, or just have some of the hormones or surgery options.
Maybe ask your friends if they think that men who transition late in life and do not have surgery (90%) should do to be considered trans and if they do not then why should teenagers have to?
What if they encouraged surgery for their child and the child decided later to de-transition, would they feel comfortable with that.