Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight

What's happening on June 12th?
Will it be worth celebrating down the pub?

Yes, I really think that all that’s been discovered here is that humans like to have sex with other humans

hardly ground breaking stuff

Perhaps Went will realise that the only approach that will work is third spaces. Anyone can self-ID in to those, as long as there are enough of them, for whatever reason they like (without having to give a reason) as an alternative to accessing toilets/changing rooms for their own (biological) sex, if using the communal rooms for their own sex is uncomfortable for them in any way.

If Went's preference is to access women's spaces because that provides validation, Went will learn (through participating in reasonable debate) that this preference won't be accommodated. The era of EDI dominance is (hopefully... June 12th 🤞) over. It's time for the grown ups to agree how TW and TM can access spaces and services that give them dignity without impacting on others' rights or safeguarding. If we can't have reasonable debate with people like Went, I don't see how we will achieve this.

TinselAngel, when we were discussing the programme afterwards, I said to DP that the group completely ignored by the programme were the trans widows. Interestingly it hadn’t even crossed his mind that there are wives and children affected by the decisions made.

Also a lot of the replies are saying things like "I'm straight but..." And "If I were a lesbian..." which does rather suggest that the framing in terms of romantic / sexual crush language is intentional.

To be clear I'm not really picking fights with individual posters. I think it shows something deeper about how society views women: as objects of attraction before anything else.

I think this is a really thought-provoking point, but I'm not sure it speaks to internalised misogyny as much as you imply. There was an equally gushing (and arch) outpouring of appreciation for Ben Cooper during his various appearances at tribunals... Nor is it (I suspect) only women who express romantic/sexual feelings for random people, especially ones who happen to epitomise qualities they admire.

I wonder whether it's more that we have a tendency to express lust as a playful way both to underline the sheer intensity of our feelings and ironise it (hence the "girl crush" language). It acknowledges genuine, passionate admiration but also the fact that we don't have any meaningful personal relationship with her, and there is something a bit childish and embarrassing to feel so strongly about a stranger.

AgathaAllAlong I'm copying your post here, so I can have a decent think about it, simply because the way MN works now makes it really really hard to find any posts other than one's own, unless you're a Premium user which I can't actually afford atm.

To be clear, I think I'm in agreement with you now you've pointed it out (I said "If I were a lesbian.....") so I'd like to have an answer to you which will clear my head of it. I won't derail the thread any further than this though: I am 65 and I suppose this is just something one had to say in many circles, not I really admire her - often met with piss taking for being a closet lesbian; I would love to know her/be her friend - often met with piss taking for being a closet lesbian - you see where this is going obviously. Far better to take the bull by the horns. Habit made me phrase it as I did, perhaps. I don't often admire people, and I do feel somethng more than admiration for KS but no idea what it is yet. Nothing remotely sexual anyway.

"I don't even know where to start with that. What is wrong with the word "admiration" - perhaps it's not cutesy and girly enough? Why are we calling adult women "girls"? Where does that leave same sex attraction? Why do we feel the need to frame looking up to another woman in terms of romantic and sexual language?

Also a lot of the replies are saying things like "I'm straight but..." And "If I were a lesbian..." which does rather suggest that the framing in terms of romantic / sexual crush language is intentional.

To be clear I'm not really picking fights with individual posters. I think it shows something deeper about how society views women: as objects of attraction before anything else."

Thanks for your post, I do learn so much from MN.

The Hamlet-Went gambit
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.

Perhaps Went enjoys the effect of using women's spaces.

I thought that.

Knowingly and deliberately frightening people much weaker and more vulnerable than yourself is bullying. The Ego Has Landed.

I have found this deeply weird too.

I don't even know where to start with that. What is wrong with the word "admiration" - perhaps it's not cutesy and girly enough? Why are we calling adult women "girls"? Where does that leave same sex attraction? Why do we feel the need to frame looking up to another woman in terms of romantic and sexual language?

Also a lot of the replies are saying things like "I'm straight but..." And "If I were a lesbian..." which does rather suggest that the framing in terms of romantic / sexual crush language is intentional.

To be clear I'm not really picking fights with individual posters. I think it shows something deeper about how society views women: as objects of attraction before anything else.

He really concerned me. Bad vibes even through the tv.

Went advises organisations on their EDI requirements.

Of course.

When your business model becomes untenable (the era of #nodebate is over) … change your business model.

I suspect you have nailed the purpose without saying it explicitly.

The more I think about it, the "reasonable transexual" pose is just marketing for the grift isn't it? Particularly now the tide is turning.

And yes, why were they so concerned about the women’s toilets.
I thought they were supposed to feel safer in the Ladies? It's very confusing.

Yes.

They have past form for it.

Went advises organisations on their EDI requirements.

The extent to which these reasonable transexuals have all created their own lucrative grift is flabbergasting.

Mind you, he clearly doesn't make enough to hire a cleaner.

I have no doubt that Gwenffrewi is all about the activism. Just about everything they said was clear on that point.

And yes, why were they so concerned about the women’s toilets. Quite likely it was fear of rejection rather than respect. Perhaps a sticker will be there. But I am optimistic that maybe some will start to make alternative arrangements.

I think that sums up the moderate/reasonable TW position perfectly

So Went will still trample on women's rights, but will smile whilst doing so. I see.

Yes. There it all is. I remember.

Went advises organisations on their EDI requirements. They are not the reasonable person they portray. They are telling organisations that males should be using female toilets.

The pattern is always the same. These particular male activists do love a discussion, it is never a productive discussion for women though.

Helleofabore · Yesterday 23:16

That was anti-climatic. I think if I was a person who did not know about the issues, I would still not really know about the issues.

I'd agree with your summation, there was no in depth discussion, never mind analysis. Most of the trans side seemed to be quite whiny about how hard life is, despite them all appearing to be well off and with nothing really to worry about.

I watched on C4 Player and was mildly irked to be forced to answer "what gender" are you?

Well, it's either blokes or it's women, isn't it, Tinsel?

If it's the former - ditto. If it's the latter - funnily enough I think women have far more cause to be afraid of males than the inverse.

It would have been good to hear Gina explain in more detail what, or whom, Gina was afraid of.
Possibly some tutting?