Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight

I agree. I think the comparison between Went and Hayton is apt.

Someone who wants to use social pressure to manipulate you into lying about what you see, say by trying to get you to use pronouns like she and her to describe him is someone who needs careful watching and is probably best avoided in my opinion

This is of course an entirely hypothetical scenario where we negotiate future trans policy directly with our opponents, but once you give boundaries/rights away, you don't get them back easily- see the GRA and also the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

Being a victim of manipulation and abuse is not a reflection of character or intelligence. It can happen to anyone.

This. It really can. Anyone can be manipulated into acting against their own interests by someone they care for or trust. As I also know from experience. The "just world" fallacy suggests that these things only happen to certain people, who've done something wrong, acted like other people don't. It's comforting, but untrue. And it's something IME that women particularly tend to do, because it reassures them that these things (rape, DV, sexual harassment) won't happen to them.

Hmm. I don't believe in am. I've heard the call for caution and I welcome the advice. But lots has changed recently in the public conversation.

IMO if we don't engage with others who share a different opinion, such as KJW, we won't move anything forward and we'll just keep shouting at each other. I'm happy to take the "risk" that I'll give away my boundaries. If ever I did, there would now be plenty of people who would put them back in place.

No. You're over confident. There's plenty of evidence just on this thread of women being beguiled into thinking a raging TRA is a "reasonable" "transexual".

Understood. But you don't give your boundaries away now.
I can't begin to imagine the hurt and betrayal of being in that kind of situation, and learning about boundary setting through being gaslit by someone that was trusted and loved.

But I can imagine now, and the changes that have happened in society since the days when it was so hidden. So much has happened since then, thanks to people like you speaking up. There are lots more voices now and that helps to keep the boundaries firm.

Being a victim of manipulation and abuse is not a reflection of character or intelligence. It can happen to anyone.

But you don't give away your boundaries. Despite how it may appear, I admire you hugely for that. Why do you think I'd give away mine?

Of course I did. Repeatedly.

But you don't give away your boundaries. Despite how it may appear, I admire you hugely for that. Why do you think I'd give away mine?

where is the risk in believing that conversation to make it happen is possible?

Because you will be beguiled and manipulated into giving away your boundaries. Trans Widows know how these men operate.

That would be great, but also unlikely. So I'm not going to waste my energy arguing for it in the short term, when the longer term gain of a wider support for gender neutral spaces seems to be getting closer to being real. I'll accept that I could be wrong, but where is the risk in believing that conversation to make it happen is possible?

Thank you. That was enlightening.

So from that account from three years ago we know that KJW and co are: strategic, tactical, and opportunistic in their approach to campaigning, and that they carefully curate what they say, according to the audience, in order to garner sympathy and support for their position, and to avoid ‘scaring the horses’.

Just read that thread by Bragg. I've heard that argument made before. But it's nonsense. There's a difference between subjective feelings (which include sexual attraction) and reality (like what sex your body is).

What he has written is not only a denial of evolutionary science (many females of many species are equipped to have sex with each other) but breathtakingly homophobic. HOMOPHOBIC.

KJW says that on their website?

Brava 👏👏👏

The main point is the mention of additional neutral spaces. That's a conversation opener.
Not unless he's using the Gents until these neutral spaces magically appear, otherwise it's just flannel.

Ps yes I did spot the down playing of toilets as an issue.
That's fine as it works both ways to diffuse the heat out of the conversation. It's a non-negotiable issue. The main point is the mention of additional neutral spaces. That's a conversation opener.

A pedant writes: it was Manchester Met, wasn't it? So not Russell Group, but yes, a university professor in law. Yes, law. Wanted Channel 4 to put a murder trial at risk by including details of a recent tragic murder which has not yet come to trial.

Interesting to get more info about KJW. I'd not come across this person before and I too thought the producer had put KJW in as an example of an old school transsexual just getting on with things. Disingenuous now I know that KJW is keen to do EDI training and sits on various panels.

What happened with MY? I remember years ago MY used to post here and got a warm welcome.

I just had a quick look at KJW's Twitter feed... This was interesting:

More talk, more drink, more cats seems to be a consensus. Kathleen and I both have cats

Followed by:

Toilets are the least of the issues and solvable with decency, common sense.and some additional not replacement neutral facilities funding. I'd feel safest in a door marked cat-owners!

Perhaps third spaces are finally on the discussion table.
Although I absolutely take the point that KJW has form (and a thriving business etc) perhaps she/they/he (following KJW's own lead on pronouns here) has decided that this is the Joe Wicks opportunity moment. Spot a gap in the market to be a proper celebrity. A modern day hero to all sides. Well, I'm not budging on single sex spaces and services or the harms that are currently being done to children's bodies, but I'll still happily join a conversation on that basis. I'm definitely open to hearing what it feels like to be a trans woman and understand more about that from KJW's perspective. If there is a fetish element to her/his/their world, I'll pass on hearing more about that but I'll happily help boost a campaign for inclusivity and removing fear and discrimination. But that doesn't change the non-negotiable boundaries.

😄

Maybe a connection?

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/obituaries/21001600.obituary-barbara-ross---champion-norfolks-transgender-community/

I imagine Billy sitting there watching the telly thinking he’s cracked it…..

Yes.

Is it any nicer to be oppressed, excluded and denied equality nicely and politely than screamingly with death threats?

No. Not really.

At least the screamers are being honest about what they're doing.