Gender Wars - Channel 4 - 10pm tonight

Thanks for the correction Arabella.

I believe my point still stands though, "reasonable" is not how I would describe Hayton.

The exam night reveal was Jane Ozimek/Fae

Because you will be beguiled and manipulated into giving away your boundaries. Trans Widows know how these men operate.

Exactly

Copying / mirroring how Stock is being accepted in the media as she's on the moderate side and always makes pro trans points while maintaining the stance men can't be women.

We've had no reasonable mainstream coverage as no one would debate. #nodebate.

KJW recently conceded on sports and now agrees with the bans. A u turn. This gets them air time as the media loves "balance" and moderate reasonable TRAs can be aired alongside feminists. (Because women can't speak for themselves and be heard 🙄)

KJW is PRing themselves to appear reasonable. It's chameleonic.

Also contributed to this

The trans teen trend: a case of social contagion? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4717248-the-trans-teen-trend-a-case-of-social-contagion

Hayton is a self confessed agp with a wife and children, who decided to reveal his "true self" on the eve of one of his teen daughter's exams iirc, and who was responsible for drafting trans guidance for schools.

If you think that's all reasonable I can't help you.

I agree with Woman2023.

To me a great difficulty sets within women ‘agreeable’ nature. We have been socialised to please, avoid conflict and agree to compromise. Most people will see this from their daily circumstances and will concede. It’s such a small number of people, I’m sure it won’t inconvenience me. But it is a small number of people that can have a huge impact in most contexts. Whether Mtf or ftm there is a misogynistic current under the transition proposition and it permeates all aspects of life.

You might be fine with the live and let live, but when your daughter starts considering she might be a man instead of lesbian, or is pushed out of their favourite sport competition or she is flashed in a hanging room, or you are seen by a mtf nurse despite asking for a female one or your mum has to share a room in a ward with such a person, things might change even if that mtf is a nice person. But by then, it might be too late.

The pretense becomes a lie when you are forced to accept it on every single aspect of your life, even when pressured to consider sexual partners.

Imho the only hope is to reinforce distinction between LGB and the T+ from schools and make sure the EDI business is not monopolised by The usual suspects.

@Woman2023 I don't agree. What about people like Hayton?

There are no, absolutely zero, reasonable trans activists. Each and every one of them wants special leave to violate women's boundaries.

Regarding being overconfident - the comment below was about asking whether KJW uses women's toilets now.

That would be great, but also unlikely. So I'm not going to waste my energy arguing for it in the short term, when the longer term gain of a wider support for gender neutral spaces seems to be getting closer to being real.

How exactly can we push for 3rd spaces for men with a 'gender identity' of woman if we simply accept them in the ladies now? Don't start a negotiation by giving them exactly what they want!

“where is the risk in believing that conversation to make it happen is possible?”

The other issue is if only ‘reasonable’ male trans activists are presented on a panel or in a documentary, people start to think, ‘ok, what is the issue? Why are prople so worried? Why are people saying they are being cancelled?’ It gives an entirely false perception of what has really happened and what the forces on the discussion are like now.

I am not saying don’t have them, I am saying there needs to be acknowledgment, if they are there, of the hostility of the discussion so far.

And if such an individual is there and is the only trans representative, that the woman representing women’s needs is not only very calm, but is experienced in getting their message across quickly and precisely before filling the message out. (Rather than building up to deliver the message, if you know what I mean)

The other danger is that on some issues they come around to ‘ageeeing’, because it is expedient for them to concede as they look to the future. Such as sport. They concede there. But people then believe this ‘reasonable’ male will be an ally in other specificities on women and children’s rights. When they aren’t. They just aren’t abusive, and they listen, then calmly continue on their way.

Just like a person who nods their head along indicating that they have heard you, but not that they agree. But you think they agree and so you haven’t asked the specific question. But they haven’t agreed at all.

In short, a person who appears reasonable superficially as Went does, is very dangerous. It means that people believe the issues are in calm considered hands but when the result comes through, realise they have been sold yet another dud. All because they believed a male person who is deceptively reasonable.

@ Warrior What’s a “mirroring self PR campaign”? I agree on the self promotion but I haven’t come across mirroring before in that context.

THIS! ⬆

In Spades!

I agree that I don't think anything major will come from this.

I also think the next GE if swings to labour, any progress will be lost, partly as a new government is a massive distraction. And partly as they're too chicken to discuss it.

However, it could mean that the feminist views are discussed more in the mainstream in a way that means it's much easier to discuss the inherent harms. Which will help across society generally - schools in particular.

I've experienced the impact locally on parents tentatively starting to discuss the issue in the park on play dates. Parents are the ones who are countering this in schools.

A friend mentioned the sport issue. Countered with "people should be able to choose how they want to live their lives but don't go stealing women's sports places." I agreed re sport but also that actually I'm not sure i agree with her other point as it's more complicated across other parts of society. We didn't continue the conversation bar agreeing that kids should be left alone, but this programme would have filled in some gaps.

If I reflect on my own journey, hearing more "reasonable" TRAs talk was helpful in the early stages before getting to the WTF ODFO stages. KJW is useful from that pov for the masses but also agree not to be under any illusion that they're actually reasonable.

I think KJW is embarking on a mirroring self PR campaign.

This.

@ApocalipstickNow Im sure he’d accept 2 men are equipped to have sexual with each other despite the lack of a vagina, wouldn’t he?

It's clear from what he wrote there that his primary motivation is misogyny. As you say, I doubt he'd have any trouble imagining that The Mighty Peens are 'hardware' well-equipped to have a good time in any combination. Whereas to Bragg, female humans are just passive receptacles; partially-sentient support bipeds for the actual people, the ones with The Mighty Peen: therefore obviously how could passive receptacles be equipped for anything else?

The homophobia against same-sex attracted women, seems more like a by-product of the misogyny.

Which is ironic, given the title of one of his Top 30 hits.

I'm gutted! Don't worry about it @TinselAngel . I'm in full agreement with @RealityFan as well.

Time for me to go to bed I was referring to RealityFan's post!

Sorry MouseMinge

I think you were quoting me, good thing I'm not too precious, lol.

1st paragraph was quoting MouseMinge

If anyone thinks that a year on from Gender Wars, there'll be committees set up to find compromise between interested parties, don't hold your breath.

100% agree with your post @MouseMinge. I'm only just getting any kind of representation for Trans Widows. There isn't going to be some kind of truth and reconciliation enquiry that includes Mumsnetters, charities, raging TRAs and then Katy Jon and Hayton.

Thanks for so much of what's been posted here. I was inclined to take KJW at face value. Not completely convinced but, you know, prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. Having read here and then read about him further outside of here, that's a solid nope from me.

Nice to see Bragg outing himself as a total homophobe. Does he honestly think that lesbians think that when they have sex they can make a baby? Is he aware that homosexuality is something that is present across most species of animals on this planet? Is he aware that sometimes sex is about pleasure and not just putting a potential baby in an adult human female's womb? I used to admire that man and he has turned out to be an absolute joke of a human being.

I think there may be an idea that women can be persuaded to abandon all the rights we've fought for. We should just be kind.

No. Fuck off.

I hate to sound negative (I'm normally such a cheerie fellow), but I'm at a loss as to see where this constructive dialog is gonna go, let alone start.

I believe what we saw on Gender Wars was a false perspective of the potential for narrative.

What's a truer representation is that other Kath Stock event, her Oxford Union talk.

The fact that it's taken a decade for something as anodyne as the programme yesterday to be shown, whereas that show should have been on the TV at least 5 years ago, if not 7.

No, the temperature at fever pitch at Oxford is the true barometer.

There will be no more "dialog" just an era defining battle for rights and pushback, characterised by the law on one hand (ECHR judgement and cases like Forstater and the Tickle case etc), individual bodies adjudication (IOC, British Cycling, prisons policy), politicians trying to define public policy (RSE in schools and gender teaching), and the froth on SM/individuals slugging it out eg LWS, JKR on Twitter, DQSH.

If anyone thinks that a year on from Gender Wars, there'll be committees set up to find compromise between interested parties, don't hold your breath.

This is a civil war that will require 24/7 vigilance from women for the foreseeable.

For every man kept out of women's prisons, there will be a hundred men going into women's toilets the same day.

For every women's elite sports events barred to bio men, there'll be Breeze events welcoming men.

Etc etc. No dialog, just tiring battles.

Yes. It is a good example of where people will use pronouns, declare this person some kind of ally, when the reality is rather different.

The reality is that they love the fact they are getting the respect, the centring in the discussion that they have no intention of giving way on at all. So again, women give and this male takes without any reciprocation. Except they women were not abused for talking.